Ye Olde Olde Haixing Era and some of its parallels, ep 40

[china_shop]

This post looks at bb!Shen Wei and bb!Ye Zun (before he was called that) encountering the Rebel Chieftain-to-be and their lives being turned upside-down. I wanted to poke at some of the ways this event ripples and echoes up the timeline. As with my previous parallels post, this is pretty once-over-lightly wrt the scenes themselves, and the scenes are all still up for more in-depth scene discussions.

The earliest part of the timeline

Ep 40, 11:52 to 14:02. I've intercut Shen Wei and Ye Zun's memories to put the scene in chronological order.


BB!Shen Wei helping bb!Ye Zun along.
Shen Wei and Ye Zun are walking together through the post-meteor-strike landscape. Ye Zun coughs.

SW: Didi, are you okay?
弟弟 你没事吧
YZ: Ge, I am so tired.
哥 我好累呀
SW: Don't worry. I will never leave you alone.
放心 我一步也不会离开你了

The Rebel Chieftain-to-be shows up.

RC: Stop! You have a fantastic build. You have potential. How about following me?
站住啊 你倒是骨骼清奇 是个好苗子 怎么样 要不要跟随我的麾下
SW: You just killed someone!
你刚杀了人
Note: When Shen Wei says this, the camera crosses the 180-degree line. (From the linked site: “When you [cross] the 180 degree line, you break the 180 degree rule and signal to the viewer that something is wrong.” It can be used to depict unease or a feeling that things are disorienting or out of control.)


The Rebel Chieftain-to-be is unabashed about his violence;
bb!Shen Wei is judgemental and fearlessly accusatory. *hearts him*
RC: A meteorite has hit Haixing. The world is messed up. Killing a person isn’t a big deal.
现在陨石袭击海星 天下大乱 杀个把人算什么
YZ: (faints from coughing)
SW: (to YZ) Are you okay?
你怎么了

 
Ye Zun is out cold; Shen Wei and the Rebel Chieftain-to-be crouch down to check on him.
 
The Rebel Chieftain-to-be checks Ye Zun's pulse and is incensed when Shen Wei knocks his hand away.
SW: (to YZ) What's wrong?
你怎么了
RC: He passed out from coughing too severely? What crap! Let me see.
咳都能咳晕过去 真是个废物 让我帮他看看
SW: *knocks the Rebel Chieftain’s hand away* Don't hurt him even just a hair!
不准你伤他一根毫毛
RC: How dare you hit me! *throws SW over cliff*
敢对我动手

[Ye Zun wakes]

 
Ye Zun wakes up; everything has gone terribly wrong.
YZ: Gege…
哥哥
RC: Your brother has abandoned you. He deliberately told me before he left to have you replace him in receiving my cultivation.
你哥啊 他已经抛下你走了 他走之前特意交代我 以后啊 就让你代替他接受我的栽培

[Shen Wei finds his blade and scrambles to the top of the cliff]

 
Shen Wei calls for his brother, who has vanished.
SW: Didi! Didi! Didi! Where are you?
弟弟 弟弟 弟弟 你在哪里呀

Ripples, parallels, foreshadowing

1. Ye Zun's sickness, and Shen Wei supporting and caring for him, is paralleled in Zhao Yunlan's illness in episode 8, particularly since Zhao Yunlan's gastritis is also a chronic condition.
   
   
   Shen Wei helping sick!Ye Zun along; Shen Wei helping sick!Zhao Yunlan along.
   (Is it a coincidence Zhao Yunlan is wearing light-coloured clothes in this scene?)
   How much is Shen Wei thinking of that? Does he wonder what danger could have befallen Zhao Yunlan if he hadn't been there to help? Does he wonder if things would have gone differently all those millennia ago if he could have made Ye Zun congee and given him medicine? Does his past experience of famine and hunger contribute to his exasperation with the way Zhao Yunlan lives?


2. "Don't hurt him even just a hair!" and knocking away the Rebel Chieftain-to-be's hand reminds me of Shen Wei warning Zhu Jiu and Wu Tian'en not to touch Zhao Yunlan. The fear of loss and evildoers hurting his loved one is always present.
   
    
   Dark energy gathered in Shen Wei's hand; Shen Wei Envoying in plain clothes.
   Zhu Jiu: Why don't I let Zhao Yunlan know your little secret?
   Shen Wei: I'm warning you, if you dare to bring him into this, I will not let you off. (ep 4, 31:50)
   
    
   Shen Wei, sans glasses, warning Wu Tian'en not to touch Zhao Yunlan.
   SW: This place has its own rules. I won't interfere in what's between you and the SID. I came here just to tell you that no matter what you plan to do from now on, Zhao Yunlan -- do not touch him. (ep 5, 18:28; the camera crosses the 180-degree line as he warns Wu Tian'en.)
   
   He needs people to know Zhao Yunlan is off-limits... and nowadays he can back up his warning with strength and authority.


3. Shen Wei's promise to Ye Zun, "Don't worry, I will never leave you alone," has a payoff in their afterlife scene in ep 40, when they reconcile and Shen Wei takes Ye Zun "home" (ep 40, 11.04 to 16:23 (incl the flashbacks)). Shen Wei is finally able to fulfill his promise.
   
    
   The twins take each other's hands and walk up the stairs to the afterlife.


4. The Rebel Chieftain-to-be lying to Ye Zun about Shen Wei is a prequel to (and the cause of) Ye Zun lying to Dixingren, including to Zhu Jiu and others, about the Envoy, declaring him a traitor.
   
    
   The Rebel Chieftain-to-be grinning as he lies to Ye Zun; Ye Zun's pillar glowing as he lies to everyone else.


5. In Zhu Jiu's villain origin flashback, when he encounters the Envoy, he's fresh from killing a guard and still has blood on his hands (ep 20, 4:21 for the murder; 5:01 for the encounter with the Envoy). People in the streets are shouting, "He murdered someone!"
   
    
   BB!Shen Wei notices the Rebel Chieftain-to-be's bloodied hand.
    
   Sneering, fresh-from-a-murder Zhu Jiu faces off with the stern Envoy.
   The Envoy reacts with uncharacteristic severity and gives Zhu Jiu a scar on his cheek. I always wondered why, given how cool and measured the Envoy's judgements usually are. While making this post, it occurred to me it could have been a reaction to the memory of the bloody-handed murderer who incapacitated him and stole and enslaved his brother.


6. Being thrown over a cliff by the Rebel Chieftain-to-be, here, is paralleled by the first YOHE battle we see, where the same man is backing the Envoy against a cliff. It's also paralleled in the final YOHE battle.
   
    
   BB!Shen Wei looking and calling for his missing brother.
    
   The young Envoy watching as Kunlun is ripped away, into the sky.
   In the battle with Ye Zun for the Hallows, Shen Wei is thrown to the ground, stunned and incapacitated. But rather than having his loved one disappear in his absence, as when he was a child, this time he's forced to lie helpless and watch as Kunlun struggles against the inexorable pull of the Hallows and is drawn into the sky to vanish. As a child and as an adult, he calls their name, but it makes no difference.


7. Running to the top of the cliff to find Ye Zun vanished feels like a metaphor for something we don't see: Shen Wei arriving in Haixing and being unable to find Kunlun.


8. And one more, for added angst: when Shen Wei and Ye Zun are reunited after their separation, there are two skirmishes -- one in the trees, and the final battle.
   
   
   Ye Zun crying, then snarling, as he reunites with his brother.
   At the final battle, Ye Zun weeps crocodile tears and then reveals to Shen Wei that they're enemies now.
   
    
   Zhao Yunlan making nice at his first meeting with Professor Shen, while being suspicious and investigatey.
   Similarly, when Shen Wei meets Zhao Yunlan in modern-day Haixing, he finds Zhao Yunlan with a false front of geniality.
   
    
   Zhao Yunlan turning his head to avoid being seen by Professor Shen, then leaning in flirtily as they talk.
   For example, at their third meeting, Zhao Yunlan is actually trying to surveille Li Qian, and when Shen Wei intercepts him, Zhao Yunlan leans in and pretends he's there to see Shen Wei. (The lean isn't so obvious in the screencap, but it's a lesser version of the lean in ep 14 when he says he's worried Shen Wei will be too excited to sleep.)
   
    
   Zhao Yunlan pretends to be friendly and smiley, but underneath, he's super suspicious.
   Under his cheerful, attentive faux-flirting, Zhao Yunlan is suspicious and guarded. (More crossing of the 180-degree line.)

In conclusion, ALL the parallels, ripples, echoes and angst. :D :D :D

Thoughts? Counter-arguments? Additional parallels with the early YOHE scene, that I missed?

Comments

[nnozomi]

Oh dear, the little!ones make me so sad. Poor bb!Ye Zun.

You make so many good points but I was thinking also of little!Shen Wei's "Don't you dare hurt a hair on his head" in parallel to Zhao Yunlan's "Who hurt you? His life's forfeit." Not that I have a good argument for it, it just struck me somehow...

[china_shop]

I knoooow. Poor bb!Ye Zun and poor bb!SW. :-(((((

but I was thinking also of little!Shen Wei's "Don't you dare hurt a hair on his head" in parallel to Zhao Yunlan's "Who hurt you? His life's forfeit." Not that I have a good argument for it, it just struck me somehow...

Oh, yes, protectiveness is such a strong theme in the show. (Is that the translation, "His life's forfeit"? I've always seen it as "I'll kill him.")

[nnozomi]

(Is that the translation, "His life's forfeit"? I've always seen it as "I'll kill him.")
Sorry, just obsessed with playing with the Chinese text as usual... . It's 我必要他一命, which is literally "I need his life" or "I'll have his life," I think, always allowing for my extremely WIP Chinese skills; so I thought "His life's forfeit" would come out right in English. "I'll kill him" is absolutely what he means though!

[china_shop]

I thought "His life's forfeit" would come out right in English.

To me, "his life's forfeit" sounds more objective and rule-based, than "I'll kill him!", so I wondered if there was an implicit cultural element I was missing (like, an entrenched and formalised "eye for an eye" kind of thing?). But that might just be me. :-)

[nnozomi]

I wondered if there was an implicit cultural element I was missing (like, an entrenched and formalised "eye for an eye" kind of thing?
Oh, I never thought about that! If there is, I'm missing it too ;) I like messing with the translation a little just because it's perfectly possible to say straight-up "I'll kill him" in Chinese and Zhao Yunlan chooses a different phrasing, but I'm not really qualified... .

[china_shop]

I quite like "I'll take his life" but is it violent enough? How about "I'll make him pay"?

I like messing with the translation a little just because it's perfectly possible to say straight-up "I'll kill him" in Chinese and Zhao Yunlan chooses a different phrasing, but I'm not really qualified... .

It is fun. And I think "qualified" is a continuum, and you're much further along it than me. <3 <3 <3

[trobadora]

I was thinking also of little!Shen Wei's "Don't you dare hurt a hair on his head" in parallel to Zhao Yunlan's "Who hurt you? His life's forfeit."

Oh, yes, that's also a good one! (And I love that they're so protective, both of them.)

[nnozomi]

(And I love that they're so protective, both of them.)
Yes <3 I mean, it's all bound up with "it doesn't matter if I get hurt as long as no one lays a finger on him," in both cases, so ow, but it's still lovely.

[trobadora]

"Ow, but still lovely" is the perfect description. :D

[elenothar]

My brain is a bit too tired right now to engage with the post as it deserves, but one thing rang a bell:

The Envoy reacts with uncharacteristic severity and gives Zhu Jiu a scar on his cheek. I always wondered why, given how cool and measured the Envoy's judgements usually are.

I've wondered about this previously, and had come to the possibility that Ye Zun messed with Zhu Jiu's memory/perception, since we know from an earlier episode flashback that Zhu Jiu is mind-controlled at least to some degree from the moment he first goes to the pillar. I just can't really reconcile the whole 'giving Zhu Jiu a wound in the face' thing with HPS' normal mode of operation. It's entirely unnecessary - and feels almost petty? But even with the parallel you've dug out, I feel like Shen Wei is generally more level-headed than that - and what should be done is to bring Zhu Jiu back to the palace for sentencing (which he then... doesn't do?? This entire sequence makes no sense to me aside from a Doylian 'we need Zhu Jiu to hate the Envoy' point of view, in which case it just feels like lazy writing to me *shrug*).

[china_shop]

Mind control makes sense, except that as far as we see, contemporary Shen Wei doesn't set him straight or contradict him to Zhao Yunlan. I wonder if the flashback is just a memory Zhu Jiu is having, or an illustration of his accusation... How biased is it supposed to be? And at what point does Zhu Jiu pass out?

Then there's the scar. Or do you think Ye Zun gave Zhu Jiu the scar?

But even with the parallel you've dug out, I feel like Shen Wei is generally more level-headed than that - and what should be done is to bring Zhu Jiu back to the palace for sentencing (which he then... doesn't do??

Yeah, me too. Maybe he does take him back to the palace, and Zhu Jiu spent some intervening years imprisoned before being released or escaping to Haixing?

Anyway, if it is an accurate version of events, Shen Wei does look quite emotional behind his mask. It would be interesting to know how soon after waking from the energy seal this took place. (I don't know if they tell us?)

[elenothar]

Mind control makes sense, except that as far as we see, contemporary Shen Wei doesn't set him straight or contradict him to Zhao Yunlan. I wonder if the flashback is just a memory Zhu Jiu is having, or an illustration of his accusation...

I always assumed it was just a memory and nothing was actually being explained in the present - all Zhu Jiu wanted was to remind Shen Wei of their 'shared past', after all - and I feel like most of the flashbacks in the show work as memories? I possibly should have questioned that assumption though...

Then there's the scar. Or do you think Ye Zun gave Zhu Jiu the scar?

Any kind of way he could've got the scar, but I kinda thought that maybe what we saw in the memory just wasn't the entirety of the events/an edited version? It may well have been Shen Wei who gave him the scar, I just don't really see how that scene holds together as is, or why Shen Wei would be that emotional. I don't think they tell us when in the already screwy timeline this is, though.

Maybe he does take him back to the palace, and Zhu Jiu spent some intervening years imprisoned before being released or escaping to Haixing?

That would make some sense, though I'd be confused as to why his years of imprisonment aren't something else shown to fuel Zhu Jiu's resentment of Heipaoshi.

[china_shop]

and I feel like most of the flashbacks in the show work as memories?

Off the top of my head, there's the one where Sha Ya's friend finally tells her what happened and why her revenge is wrong, Lao Li explaining his history to Da Qing, Zhang Shi explaining to ZYL how he met Zhao Xinci, and the twins' flashbacks in ep 40 (though arguably, in the afterlife, they're actually sharing memories somehow rather than explaining? Idk). Likely more. But then other times, it's just a memory, like a lot of Shen Wei's -- most notably, I think, the one where Minister Gao asks how ZYL recruited him to the SID. Actually, that one makes me think that it's the context (and characters' reactions afterwards) that tells us whether it was an out-loud explanation or just a memory. And we don't get any clues from Zhu Jiu's one because the scene cuts away.

It may well have been Shen Wei who gave him the scar, I just don't really see how that scene holds together as is, or why Shen Wei would be that emotional.

Yeah, I've never understood that either. It almost works for me as a trauma response/lashing out at Zhu Jiu as a proxy for the Rebel Chief, but it's so different from any other time we see him acting as the Envoy, afaicr, plus we don't get that context for it until the final episode.

That would make some sense, though I'd be confused as to why his years of imprisonment aren't something else shown to fuel Zhu Jiu's resentment of Heipaoshi.

Because the imprisonment is all the Regent's fault?

[elenothar]

Because the imprisonment is all the Regent's fault?

I didn't get the impression that Zhu Jiu was particularly rational in assigning blame, but anyway, I just rewatched that scene and Zhu Jiu goes back to the pillar with his face wound streaming blood to swear loyalty to Ye Zun, which must be right after and implies that a) he didn't go to prison and b) Shen Wei just... let him go after that one swipe? Thought he was dead (don't see why he would think that given the comparatively tiny facial wound)? Idk, it honestly makes even less sense on rewatch.

[china_shop]

but anyway, I just rewatched that scene and Zhu Jiu goes back to the pillar with his face wound streaming blood to swear loyalty to Ye Zun

Oh, good point. I have no answers, then. (... Unless the Envoy was marking him as a criminal along the lines of the Five Punishments, but that's just random context-free speculation, and a cheek scar seems a bit non-specific for that, to my unknowledgeable mind.)

I wonder if this came before or after Shen Wei rescued Chu Shuzhi from the Regent's torturey prison sentence... like, maybe Shen Wei wanted to punish him for the murder without delivering him into Dixing's official criminal justice system.

[trobadora]

I always assumed it was just a memory and nothing was actually being explained in the present

Yeah, agreed, I don't think he explains anything in the present, just reveals his scar, which (to him) is explanation enough.

(How much does Shen Wei apparently accepting that as an explanation mean? Hm. It doesn't mean he has to remember things the same way; I think it's enough if he also remembers causing that scar, because Zhu Jiu is presenting the scar as a symbol of his hatred. That connection needs to be real, at least.)

[elenothar]

That's a good point - they didn't show us a shot of Shen Wei being confused about the scar's meaning, so there must be a connection (maybe there's some reason re: Shen Wei saying he'll excise Ye Zun's control??). It just still makes no real sense to me 😅

[trobadora]

I'm 100% with you on Zhu Jiu's memory - that just doesn't make sense as the whole picture. Either Ye Zun messed with his head, or there has to be more context that's missing. The show has a lot of scenes where things look like one thing, only to be revealed as being very different when looked at in their proper context, and I could imagine a version where that would be true here as well.

[elenothar]

Yes, me too. I just wish we'd gotten to see something like that...

[trepkos]

That's an amazing lot of parallels!

[china_shop]

Thanks! :D The show has such strong and coherent themes, and I think the parallels really work to reinforce them. :D

[trobadora]

Catching up on commenting! This is a fantastic post, and I love all the parallels, even the more tenuous ones, because the thematic resonance is still there even if a parallel individually may not mean much. This show is really on point when it comes to its themes; I love it so much. :D

Ye Zun's sickness, and Shen Wei supporting and caring for him, is paralleled in Zhao Yunlan's illness in episode 8

I never thought of it like that, but yes! Also, it shows that Shen Wei is a caretaker by nature, not just forced into that role as a kid by circumstances. (Because on TV, repetition means something. *g*)

Does he wonder if things would have gone differently all those millennia ago if he could have made Ye Zun congee and given him medicine?

I'm sure he must have been thinking about both of that at one point or another!

Does his past experience of famine and hunger contribute to his exasperation with the way Zhao Yunlan lives?

Maybe not consciously? But that kind of history/experience becomes part of a person's make-up, doesn't it. It's part of who Shen Wei is, and it would only make sense for it to affect his reaction there.

He needs people to know Zhao Yunlan is off-limits... and nowadays he can back up his warning with strength and authority.

Yes, very true!

The Envoy reacts with uncharacteristic severity and gives Zhu Jiu a scar on his cheek. I always wondered why, given how cool and measured the Envoy's judgements usually are. While making this post, it occurred to me it could have been a reaction to the memory of the bloody-handed murderer who incapacitated him and stole and enslaved his brother.

Even with that context, this bit seriously still doesn't make sense to me as a true memory. I acknowledge that there's nothing in the show to make the audience think it should be read as not true, and yet, it just doesn't fit at all. I wonder if there might have been more context to it that got cut for some reason ...

Running to the top of the cliff to find Ye Zun vanished feels like a metaphor for something we don't see: Shen Wei arriving in Haixing and being unable to find Kunlun.

Awwww! ♥ ♥ ♥

Similarly, when Shen Wei meets Zhao Yunlan in modern-day Haixing, he finds Zhao Yunlan with a false front of geniality.

Oh, yes, that's so true, I never thought of that in this context before!

[china_shop]

Thanks! <3 <3 <3

I never thought of it like that, but yes! Also, it shows that Shen Wei is a caretaker by nature, not just forced into that role as a kid by circumstances. (Because on TV, repetition means something. *g*)

True. He's very protective on a micro/practical level as well as a sword-wielding stern justice level. ♥ (Yes, exactly! They could easily have framed it differently, or had Zhao Yunlan incapacitated by injury rather than sickness, or any number of things to make it less parallel-y.)

Even with that context, this bit seriously still doesn't make sense to me as a true memory. I acknowledge that there's nothing in the show to make the audience think it should be read as not true, and yet, it just doesn't fit at all. I wonder if there might have been more context to it that got cut for some reason ...

Yeah, it definitely feels like there are some pieces missing. I wonder if those are story pieces, or if it reads differently in a Chinese context, like if we're missing something its target audience would know? (That's why I looked up traditional punishments, upthread. Well, and because I'm watching a Kdrama where a traitor was marked with a forehead tattoo.)

Oh, yes, that's so true, I never thought of that in this context before!

Another layer to Shen Wei's DNW regarding Zhao Yunlan's performative flirting. :-)

[trobadora]

I wonder if those are story pieces, or if it reads differently in a Chinese context

Yeah, could be either, but my instinct says it's story pieces, since we never see the Envoy do anything even remotely similar at any other point. I may be wrong, of course ...

Another layer to Shen Wei's DNW regarding Zhao Yunlan's performative flirting. :-)

Yes, exactly! :D

[china_shop]

Another layer to Shen Wei's DNW regarding Zhao Yunlan's performative flirting. :-)

Yes, exactly! :D

I just happened to be looking at this and suddenly went, huh. I wonder if that feeds into how Shen Wei keeps his secrets from Zhao Yunlan. That is, he hides info but he's very upfront about his emotions, because he really doesn't want to gaslight Zhao Yunlan. (And this is why some people read it as being bad at lying?) Maybe?

[trobadora]

I don't think gaslighting is quite the right word, but otherwise, that makes sense to me! I mean, part of it is deliberately putting himself in ZYL's way and drawing ZYL's attention, but he's also deliberately not making an effort to hide his interest, or his caring. He wants ZYL to believe that part is real, even if he can't tell him why. (And it works; ZYL does pick up on that, and it's part of why he can't be as suspicious of Shen Wei as he should be, professionally speaking ...)

[china_shop]

I don't think gaslighting is quite the right word

I mean, he could try harder to throw Zhao Yunlan's instincts off or deny things that Zhao Yunlan discovers. To come up with actually plausible explanations for things. But he doesn't really, especially later on. He pays lip service to "I'm just an ordinary person" but still rushes back to the SID with ZYL when there's an emergency. (It's a lot like ZYL's very relaxed approach to maintaining his Kunlun cover.)

And it works; ZYL does pick up on that, and it's part of why he can't be as suspicious of Shen Wei as he should be, professionally speaking ...

In some ways it makes ZYL trust him; in other ways, I think it makes ZYL more suspicious, too? After all, ZYL goes out of his way to be underestimated and appear/act disreputable, and here's this intelligent, respectable, well-dressed professor treating him like a friend and an equal!

[trobadora]

In some ways it makes ZYL trust him; in other ways, I think it makes ZYL more suspicious, too?

I think it makes him very suspicious in a lot of ways, but not really of Shen Wei being a villain, even though he'd have reason, given the way Shen Wei keeps turning up in the middle of the SID's cases.

[china_shop]

Oh yeah, absolutely. I think he knows something else is going on -- he just has no idea what it could be.