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sid_guardian2022-05-28 10:32 am
china_shop) wrote in sid_guardian2022-05-28 10:32 am
Entry tags:
Timeloop parallels AKA is Li Qian immortal now?
Last week when I was working on a Ye Olde Haixing Era (YOHE) fic, I woke up in the night one night and wrote in my notebook: Ahhhhhhh! If I leave, don’t hold it against me ≡ If I use my injuries, you’ll understand. Ahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
I’ve been thinking about YOHE a lot lately anyway, because the Gaywatch Guardian reaction videos had such a delightful reaction to the timeloop. (“No no no no no, we’ve been flashing back to this idiot the whole time?!” :D :D :D (CW: contains expressive swearing.)) It was so satisfying and hilarious, I must have re-watched that part nearly a dozen times by now. I’ve also been listening to some podcasts about narrative structure and thinking about foreshadowing and stuff more generally. So I decided to look at the parallels between the YOHE scenes and contemporary times, and then every time I thought I was done with this post, I ended up adding one or two more. Some of these are really obvious, and for others I might be drawing too long a bow, but hopefully there are some in the middle, too. (Actually, a lot of these are probably familiar to people who watch vids, since parallels make excellent vidding fodder.)
So, in no particular order...
ZYL: You are not immortal! Why should I so casually owe you a life?
SW: This life is what I'm returning to you.
ZYL: ???
SW: By the way, Kunlun, the life that I owe you, I will definitely return it to you.
ZYL: You have already returned it. Many times over.
SW: ???
ZYL: If one day I leave without saying goodbye, please don't blame me for that.
SW: (DNW)
SW: If a time comes when I have to use my injuries to exchange for everyone's lives... I believe at that moment you will have your answer.
ZYL: (DNW)
Their meeting in the Allied Forces headquarters contains many of the beats from their first meeting in the show, but they happen very quickly this time.
It's you!
Do I know you?
I guess not.
The show didn't have to include this in the YOHE sequence. They could have had the young Envoy recognise Kunlun immediately, without the (delightfully) silly moment where Zhao Yunlan holds his hair off his face. But even though it's played for laughs, including that moment of non-recognition, and giving Zhao Yunlan a fleeting sense of how Shen Wei felt in episode 1, adds a richness and balance to the story (as well as showing us Standard Pre-Kunlun Envoy Operating Procedure). aslkfajsdflksjdfkad
Bonus "I don't recognise you" encounter.
SW: You should give him some consideration. He's so young, but he's leading you through countless dangers.
ZYL: You are just a youth, yet your days are filled with bitterness.
Zhao Yunlan eating Shen Wei's cake.
Shen Wei eating Kunlun's lollipop.
Zhao Yunlan has engineered Shen Wei into revealing his identity, but there's a moment where Shen Wei still denies it.
Zhao Yunlan steals the mask from the young Envoy's face, and the Envoy snatches it from him and nearly puts it back on.
In both timelines, Da Qing finds Zhao Yunlan first and helps him become who he needs to be.
Da Qing messed with the Hallows and lived for ten thousand years; Li Qian wore the Sundial around her neck for a year? Years? And activated it to save her Nainai...
(Also, the Hallows have gone missing in both times, which is hard to screencap.)
In Dragon City, Zhao Yunlan "saves" Shen Wei from muggers. In YOHE, he saves him from the Rebels.
Both times he's injured and needs first aid. (Sadly, in YOHE, it's not Shen Wei who applies the salve.)
The end of the YOHE sequence mirrors the end of the show. In YOHE, Kunlun is drawn up into the sky and swallowed by the Hallows’ wormhole, and Shen Wei follows his brother into the earth/“death”. It’s a painful parting, but we know they’ll meet again.
In the finale, it's Shen Wei who gets swallowed -- by Ye Zun, who Shen Wei then ushers into the afterlife. And Zhao Yunlan chooses, this time, to go into the Hallows/sky. Because this contains so many similarities to their last parting, which wasn't permanent, it doesn't feel like the end of their story this time either (and sure enough, we see them meet again).
The big difference between YOHE and the ending is Ye Zun's realisation and change of heart.
He goes from snarling at his brother in YOHE, to smiling tremulously in the afterlife, once he's learned the truth.
And in YOHE, when Shen Wei tries to save Ye Zun from the energy seal, Ye Zun slips from his grasp.
In the finale, in death, Shen Wei holds out his hand to Ye Zun, and they walk into the afterlife together.
Guardian uses these echoes and resonances to illustrate the time-loopiness of Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan's relationship, how each influences the other to infinite regression. It also does a masterful job of setting up the ending. In my view, the interwoven nature of their story, with all these meaningful parallels, makes the foreshadowed ending feel powerful and satisfying.
What have I missed? What other mirrors/parallels or contrasts are there between YOHE and the rest of the show? And please link your favourite timeloopy fanworks in the comments!
I’ve been thinking about YOHE a lot lately anyway, because the Gaywatch Guardian reaction videos had such a delightful reaction to the timeloop. (“No no no no no, we’ve been flashing back to this idiot the whole time?!” :D :D :D (CW: contains expressive swearing.)) It was so satisfying and hilarious, I must have re-watched that part nearly a dozen times by now. I’ve also been listening to some podcasts about narrative structure and thinking about foreshadowing and stuff more generally. So I decided to look at the parallels between the YOHE scenes and contemporary times, and then every time I thought I was done with this post, I ended up adding one or two more. Some of these are really obvious, and for others I might be drawing too long a bow, but hopefully there are some in the middle, too. (Actually, a lot of these are probably familiar to people who watch vids, since parallels make excellent vidding fodder.)
So, in no particular order...
1. The obvious one
ZYL: You are not immortal! Why should I so casually owe you a life?
SW: This life is what I'm returning to you.
ZYL: ???
SW: By the way, Kunlun, the life that I owe you, I will definitely return it to you.
ZYL: You have already returned it. Many times over.
SW: ???
2. My middle-of-the-night revelation one: the Heads Up
ZYL: If one day I leave without saying goodbye, please don't blame me for that.
SW: (DNW)
SW: If a time comes when I have to use my injuries to exchange for everyone's lives... I believe at that moment you will have your answer.
ZYL: (DNW)
3. You're acting weird, do I know you?
Their meeting in the Allied Forces headquarters contains many of the beats from their first meeting in the show, but they happen very quickly this time.
It's you!
Do I know you?
I guess not.
The show didn't have to include this in the YOHE sequence. They could have had the young Envoy recognise Kunlun immediately, without the (delightfully) silly moment where Zhao Yunlan holds his hair off his face. But even though it's played for laughs, including that moment of non-recognition, and giving Zhao Yunlan a fleeting sense of how Shen Wei felt in episode 1, adds a richness and balance to the story (as well as showing us Standard Pre-Kunlun Envoy Operating Procedure). aslkfajsdflksjdfkad
Bonus "I don't recognise you" encounter.
4. Time loops change your perspective!
SW: You should give him some consideration. He's so young, but he's leading you through countless dangers.
ZYL: You are just a youth, yet your days are filled with bitterness.
5. Whatever the era, there are always sweets
Zhao Yunlan eating Shen Wei's cake.
Shen Wei eating Kunlun's lollipop.
6. The unmasking
Zhao Yunlan has engineered Shen Wei into revealing his identity, but there's a moment where Shen Wei still denies it.
Zhao Yunlan steals the mask from the young Envoy's face, and the Envoy snatches it from him and nearly puts it back on.
7. Befriended by a cat
In both timelines, Da Qing finds Zhao Yunlan first and helps him become who he needs to be.
8. Is Li Qian immortal now?
Da Qing messed with the Hallows and lived for ten thousand years; Li Qian wore the Sundial around her neck for a year? Years? And activated it to save her Nainai...
(Also, the Hallows have gone missing in both times, which is hard to screencap.)
9. Zhao Yunlan to the rescue
In Dragon City, Zhao Yunlan "saves" Shen Wei from muggers. In YOHE, he saves him from the Rebels.
Both times he's injured and needs first aid. (Sadly, in YOHE, it's not Shen Wei who applies the salve.)
10. Moonlight strolls and intimate late-night chats
11. Foreshadowing the ending
The end of the YOHE sequence mirrors the end of the show. In YOHE, Kunlun is drawn up into the sky and swallowed by the Hallows’ wormhole, and Shen Wei follows his brother into the earth/“death”. It’s a painful parting, but we know they’ll meet again.
In the finale, it's Shen Wei who gets swallowed -- by Ye Zun, who Shen Wei then ushers into the afterlife. And Zhao Yunlan chooses, this time, to go into the Hallows/sky. Because this contains so many similarities to their last parting, which wasn't permanent, it doesn't feel like the end of their story this time either (and sure enough, we see them meet again).
12. And one contrast: Ye Zun
The big difference between YOHE and the ending is Ye Zun's realisation and change of heart.
He goes from snarling at his brother in YOHE, to smiling tremulously in the afterlife, once he's learned the truth.
And in YOHE, when Shen Wei tries to save Ye Zun from the energy seal, Ye Zun slips from his grasp.
In the finale, in death, Shen Wei holds out his hand to Ye Zun, and they walk into the afterlife together.
In conclusion
Guardian uses these echoes and resonances to illustrate the time-loopiness of Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan's relationship, how each influences the other to infinite regression. It also does a masterful job of setting up the ending. In my view, the interwoven nature of their story, with all these meaningful parallels, makes the foreshadowed ending feel powerful and satisfying.
What have I missed? What other mirrors/parallels or contrasts are there between YOHE and the rest of the show? And please link your favourite timeloopy fanworks in the comments!
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This was really awesome to read through and yes, now I firmly believe
Li Qian is immortal.
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Oh yay! I didn't think reaction videos would work for me, but they were so much fun, I kept going back for more.
This was really awesome to read through and yes, now I firmly believe
Li Qian is immortal.
Hee! Thanks! :D :D :D
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And now I want Li Qian to be immortal and bond with Da Qing. :D
Hee! Yes, though now I'm envisaging angsty future!fic where they're flatting together and reminiscing about their late lamented SID friends. ㅠㅠ
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Ahem. That is to say, this is an excellent post that really highlights all the parallels, good job. I hadn't outright considered most of them. And baby Shen Wei's face is cute. How is it possible for a face to be so cute?
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Yay, glad this worked for you! Thanks! :-D
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Um, except for the cake. That is also an excellent parallel--VERY SUGGESTIVE sweet-eating--except that, as I pointed out before, Zhao Yunlan knows exactly what he's doing and little!Shen Wei (probably) doesn't.
For the record, I don't think Li Qian is immortal--I think her grandmother dealt with that issue during her well-timed posthumous appearance. I don't think she would want to be. (Maybe a bit longer-lived and healthier than average, getting back what she gave her grandmother with a bonus...).
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It brings it home to me how much more angsty the present day is than so much of the Old Haixing interlude--the dark tension of modern!Shen Wei's knowledge that he's heading toward a tragedy, and if he's lucky might be able to prevent it by being the only one who dies, versus the sense of hope for the Alliance's victory and happy coexistence under Ma Gui and Fu You?
Yes! Everything in YOHE is so compressed, too: Zhao Yunlan doesn't go through weeks or months of being held at a distance. (Not that he would -- he'd just bulldoze on in there. *g*) (Oh, now I'm wondering what happens if you flip the whole show -- make the past the main story, and give it more texture and range, and have modern-day be sweet and easy and falling-into-each-other... except that doesn't really work, does it? The existential threat with the unknown outcome has to be at the end of the timeline. And the YOHE sequence can only be this sweet because it's set against a terrible background of war and deprivation. /rambly thinking out loud)
That is also an excellent parallel--VERY SUGGESTIVE sweet-eating--except that, as I pointed out before, Zhao Yunlan knows exactly what he's doing and little!Shen Wei (probably) doesn't.
Yes! Very agreed. *g*
For the record, I don't think Li Qian is immortal--I think her grandmother dealt with that issue during her well-timed posthumous appearance.
Oh, that's a nice thought. So there are no ongoing repercussions for Li Qian? (That would explain why we never see any. :-)
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Yeah, it doesn't quite work - you'd have to change more than that - but damn, I love the idea and now I really want someone to try and make it work!
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Ooh! I always felt the Sundial would have shortened Li Qian's lifespan, but this fix-it works for that as well! I will adopt it as my new headcanon. :D
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Right??? It's so much fun, and makes everything even better!
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But even though it's played for laughs, including that moment of non-recognition, and giving Zhao Yunlan a fleeting sense of how Shen Wei felt in episode 1, adds a richness and balance to the story (as well as showing us Standard Pre-Kunlun Envoy Operating Procedure).
Yes, all of this, including your parenthetical! ♥ ♥ ♥
Anyway, I've been meaning to come back to this post with something more substantial, but I have no brain at the moment, so I can only add one little thing - a take on two scenes you already brought up, but which parallel each other in multiple different ways. Have a few:
Shen Wei looks up and sees Kunlun for the first time (episode 34) // Shen Wei looks up and sees Kunlun for the first time in 10,000 years (episode 1):
Or alternatively, Shen Wei looks up and sees Kunlun for the first time in 10,000 years (episode 1) // Zhao Yunlan sees 10,000-years-ago Shen Wei for the first time:
Or even, Zhao Yunlan sees Shen Wei for the first time (episode 1) / Shen Wei sees Zhao Yunlan for the first time (episode 34):
FWIW, my take on the Li Qian situation is that unfortunately she's more likely to have her lifespan shortened as a consequence of her use of the Sundial. I think it needs all of the Hallows together for an effect like Da Qing's immortality - the Hallows can be beneficial when used/activated/self-activating all together, but individually they're much more likely to do harm, or at least have serious negative side effects.
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Yes! I mean, they could have had the young Envoy come in and report to Fu You and Ma Gui in a very Envoy way before he noticed Zhao Yunlan, but this way was so much better!
a take on two scenes you already brought up, but which parallel each other in multiple different ways. Have a few:
OHHHH, YES! I love those!! I love how Shen Wei is just going about his business and then taken off-guard both times, and the mirrored framing of the second pair -- Shen Wei looking up in wonder; Zhao Yunlan looking down. And maybe, especially, with that last one, how they each immediately withdraw, leaving the other one going, "Heyyy..."
the Hallows can be beneficial when used/activated/self-activating all together, but individually they're much more likely to do harm, or at least have serious negative side effects.
Hmm, I don't feel like we know enough about them to state anything like that definitively? Worthy of further investigation, anyway. Besides, Da Qing did have his memory scrambled... and is immortality a boon or a curse? :-)
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Haha, yes, totally! :D
Hmm, I don't feel like we know enough about them to state anything like that definitively?
Oh, no, I didn't mean it as a statement about canon, just that that's my headcanon. Canon is not very clear about ANYTHING with regard to the Hallows. *g*
I never really got on with the concept of immortality as a curse. It's maybe not a boon, but I just can't see it as an inherently negative thing. I guess that's what I get for growing up on a sci-fi canon with immortal characters that has zero interest in that trope. *g* (As far as I can tell, overall Chinese canons tend to treat immortality as a more positive thing, compared to Western canons, not that that means anything about any individual case. /sweeping generalisation At any rate, Guardian doesn't treat Da Qing's immortality as a curse, IMO ...)
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It would be an interesting design choice: if even one of the Hallows is lost, they become destructive and dangerous. Or maybe it was a design constraint? (But then why not just build them into one big Hallow so they can't be split?) LOL, maybe Ma Gui kind of made them ad hoc, and with each additional one, the problem changed and he had a new-shaped conceptual gap to fill --> he kept designing more until the picture/functionality was complete.
(Do we know that Da Qing's encounter that made him immortal was with the complete set?)
As far as I can tell, overall Chinese canons tend to treat immortality as a more positive thing, compared to Western canons, not that that means anything about any individual case. /sweeping generalisation At any rate, Guardian doesn't treat Da Qing's immortality as a curse, IMO ...
Yes, that's true. It doesn't dwell on Da Qing's 10k years of Kunlunlessness or even Shen Wei's waiting, particularly.
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It doesn't say so explicitly, but that was the impression I came away with, anyway. It's in the context of talking about all of the Hallows:
Ma Gui: 即使是我们也未能完全开发出圣器的全部效用。 当年大庆不小心触碰了圣器，似乎也受到了某些影响。
Even we can't fully exploit all of the powers of the Hallows. Da Qing touched the Hallows accidentally before; it looked like he was affected somehow.
Wouldn't Ma Gui would have said Da Qing touched one of them if that was the case?
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