Ep 34: "I don't want my remaining brothers to sacrifice themselves anymore" (meta)

[china_shop]

I'm just going to look at the first few lines of the young Envoy and Kunlun's conversation on the clifftop in YOHE (ep 34, 38:28-39:56). (I hope someone either does a proper scene post for this scene sometime, or people pick other excerpts to bounce off/look at in depth, because the YOHE conversations are just crammed full of delicious character moments and juicy potential meta!)

Viki subs, very slightly edited by me.


The Envoy and Kunlun have a serious talk as they take a moonlit stroll.

Envoy: A thousand brothers put their faith in me, but now only a few are left.
上千个兄弟 那么的信任我 可如今却没剩几个了
A peace obtained in exchange for blood -- for those who have bled, is it really fair?
用鲜血去换取的和平 对于那些流血的人来说 真的公平吗

Kunlun: But you would still choose this road -- sacrificing a few people in exchange for thousands of years of peace for the majority. You just lack the final step before you can fulfill it.
可你还是会选这条路 以少数人的牺牲 来换取多数人千百年来的安生 只差最后一步就可以实现了


The Envoy has had a really crappy day war; Kunlun is supportive in a "keep going, it's worth it" kind of way.

Envoy: But I must take this step on my own. I don't want my remaining brothers to sacrifice themselves anymore.
可是这一步 我必须自己去走 我不想让剩下来的兄弟 再去牺牲了
Kunlun: You still have me.
你还有我

Kunlun steals the mask and compliments Shen Wei's looks, then:

Kunlun: No, why do you insist on wearing this ugly mask?
不是 你没事总戴这么丑不拉几面具干吗呀


The Envoy looks down at the mask that is the only face he ever shows anyone.

Envoy: When I am killing my enemies, I will feel afraid. When I put on this mask, they can't see my expression. They will think that I do not get afraid. Then they will be scared of me instead.
我杀敌的时候 会害怕 我戴上这个面具 敌人就看不到我的表情了 他们以为 我不会害怕 自然就会怕我了


Zhao Yunlan is a little bit heartbroken, but Shen Wei is pleased with his plan to hide any sign of vulnerability.

I was having a great conversation about this exchange recently, and thinking about it, I started to wonder how much it's intended to be read in the context (which we don't get until ep 40) of bb!Shen Wei's encounter with the future Rebel Chieftain.


BB!Shen Wei disagrees with the future leader of the Rebels about whether murder is okay.


The future leader of the Rebels does not take criticism well.

What I mean is that, long before the Rebel Army was assembled, the not-yet-Chieftain tried to recruit bb!Shen Wei, they argued about morality, and the future Chieftain threw the future Envoy over a cliff and appeared to kill his brother.

In light of this, the Envoy's soldiers repeatedly dying in battle against that same man must be pretty traumatic, right? The worst moment of my life keeps happening again and again! Every soldier who dies this way must remind him of his failure to protect Didi. In the conversation with Kunlun, he even refers to his soldiers as "a thousand brothers" and "my remaining brothers."

This also neatly explains why the fearsome Envoy might sometimes be afraid in battle.


The Rebel Chieftain advances. The Envoy is wounded. At least three of the Envoy's men are down,
and the remainder are hurt and terribly outnumbered while still valiantly trying to hold the Chieftain at bay.)


The Envoy is backed against a cliff, losing ground, with unsteady footing.


The Envoy looks down at his inevitable fate. The Rebel Chieftain smirks like
"I already threw you over one cliff and killed your only surviving family -- I'm gonna do it again."

I think it's really telling that in the first YOHE battle we see, the Envoy is backed towards a cliff by the same man who dropped him over a cliff and murdered his twin years before. It's very natural for that to be frightening. (And fwiw, given how unpractised the Envoy is at confiding in people, I think he only manages to be so candid about his fear with Kunlun because a) Kunlun is a very good listener for him specifically, b) Kunlun has unhesitatingly vowed to fight at his side and obviously cares about him, and c) only that afternoon, the Rebel Chieftain unmasked Shen Wei and smirked at the fear on his face. Whether hiding his fear was his motive for first adopting the mask or not, it's the salient reason for him tonight, fresh from that confrontation.)

What's more, I think it's reasonable for Shen Wei to have the impression that the Rebel Chieftain is particularly violent towards the Envoy's army because of their history (and he might even be right: the Chieftain has good reason to want to off Shen Wei before he learns Ye Zun has been enslaved, and he doesn't want Ye Zun discovering the truth about what happened, either). If the Envoy feels like his men are getting caught in the crossfire of a personal vendetta, that would make the burden of his losses fall even more heavily on his shoulders.

Accordingly, the young Envoy resolves that, from here on out, he'll go it alone.

I don't think the Envoy is scared in general or flinches from violence, and I don't think he's a martyr. I think he's specifically afraid of failing to protect those who depend on him and, especially, of failing to protect them from That Particular Asshole. Kunlun saved him from that failure, in that first battle we see, and that's one of the reasons Kunlun's arrival made such a profound difference in the Envoy's life, even before they'd really had a chance to talk.

In conclusion, my theory goes: 1) Shen Wei was traumatised by his first meeting with the Rebel Chieftain-to-be, and this informs every choice he makes thereafter; 2) it's quite possible the Rebel Chieftain is specifically targeting the Envoy and his men, for personal reasons as well as broader strategic ones, ugh; and 3) Kunlun is everything that is good in the world, wrapped up in one extremely attractive package.

Q1. Do you agree with this interpretation?

Q2. There are lots of reasons why Shen Wei might have begun wearing a mask -- for example, to hide his youth and inexperience as well as his fear. If it was just about intimidating his enemies, why keep wearing it amongst his allies? Maybe he felt he needed to impress Fu You and Ma Gui so they would allow him to join their alliance. Maybe masks are part of Dixing culture, cf all the masked customers in the bar in ep 17. Do you have a theory for how it started? (Links to fanworks on this subject also very welcome!)

Q3. If Kunlun hadn't arrived just then, when the Envoy was at his lowest, would the Envoy have stuck with his decision to continue on alone, even if it risked losing the war? Would his remaining soldiers, who were fighting because they believed in him and the cause, have just stood by while he tried to sideline them? Would Ma Gui and Fu You have attempted to persuade him to use every tool at his disposal to win? (I feel like ZYL being there and stepping up meant that none of these questions got answered, but some of the Envoy's men do turn up just as Shen Wei follows Ye Zun into the energy seal, so either the Envoy hadn't told them to stand down yet, or they were defying orders.)

Q4. How awful was it for Shen Wei to realise that Ye Zun had taken his enemy's place (and in some sense, literally become him, given Ye Zun ate him and absorbed his power?).

Comments

[laireshi]

BABY SHEN WEI *cries forever*

that's all i have.

[china_shop]

*hearts you*

[laireshi]

*rolls in feels* i love him so much ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

[china_shop]

Just dropping a couple of fic links here, both by me:

the path is where you're going - bb!Shen Wei's path to warlord-hood, mostly gen (2190 words)
Masks and Recompense - a SW/ZYL fic which includes a made-up cultural explanation for the masks (1944 words)

[trobadora]

This is a great post!

I was having a great conversation about this exchange recently, and thinking about it, I started to wonder how much it's intended to be read in the context (which we don't get until ep 40) of bb!Shen Wei's encounter with the future Rebel Chieftain.

I don't know how much it's meant to be read in that context - it works just fine without it, of course - but it very much works if you read it that way, and you make a very compelling case!
. Everything you say about the Rebel Chieftain and the Envoy losing people against him again and again, unable to protect them just like he was unable to protect Ye Zun, is gold. That makes 100% sense to me! And I do agree it's a good reason why the Envoy might be afraid in battle sometimes.

Every soldier who dies this way must remind him of his failure to protect Didi.

Yes, this! And what you say about Shen Wei being backed towards a cliff by the same guy who (he thinks) killed his brother - yes, exactly! I've never looked at that parallel in that context before, but it makes so much sense, and I agree, it's a very good reason why the Envoy might be afraid in battle sometimes.

(FWIW, when we talked in the other post about how him wearing the mask to hide his fear was about the past, I didn't take you to mean he's never afraid now, just that that's not his main reason for wearing the mask - he wears it all the time, after all, not just in battle - and that he's not afraid of battle itself. Like you say, he doesn't flinch from violence.)

Whether hiding his fear was his motive for first adopting the mask or not, it's the salient reason for him tonight, fresh from that confrontation.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense - it would be at the forefront of his mind, under the circumstances! Of course confrontations with the Rebel Chieftain, and especially this last one where Kunlun saves him, which was very nearly disastrous, would bring it all back to him.

What's more, I think it's reasonable for Shen Wei to have the impression that the Rebel Chieftain is particularly violent towards the Envoy's army because of their history (and he might even be right: the Chieftain has good reason to want to off Shen Wei before he learns Ye Zun has been enslaved, and he doesn't want Ye Zun discovering the truth about what happened, either). If the Envoy feels like his men are getting caught in the crossfire of a personal vendetta, that would make the burden of his losses fall even more heavily on his shoulders.

This is a really, really good point!

There are lots of reasons why Shen Wei might have begun wearing a mask -- for example, to hide his youth and inexperience as well as his fear. If it was just about intimidating his enemies, why keep wearing it amongst his allies? Maybe he felt he needed to impress Fu You and Ma Gui so they would allow him to join their alliance. Maybe masks are part of Dixing culture, cf all the masked customers in the bar in ep 17. Do you have a theory for how it started? (Links to fanworks on this subject also very welcome!)

I imagine that originally he was essentially a very young lone warrior, wearing a mask and a cloak to disguise his youth, his inexperience and his fear - and then people started following him, and their enemies started fearing him, and his becoming who he is when we meet him -in YOHE - a respected and feared general, a backbone of the war - became tied up in that public image he presented, and the leader he became can't really be separated from that image. By the time he meets Kunlun he's no longer wearing the mask to hide, though it still does hide his emotions, of course - he's wearing it as a declaration of power, just as much. It's inseparable from his image and identity, the way he presents himself to the world and the way others see him.

would the Envoy have stuck with his decision to continue on alone, even if it risked losing the war? Would his remaining soldiers, who were fighting because they believed in him and the cause, have just stood by while he tried to sideline them? Would Ma Gui and Fu You have attempted to persuade him to use every tool at his disposal to win?

FWIW, I think he might have made a serious attempt, but his soldiers wouldn't have agreed, and he's not the type of person who wouldn't respect another's choice to make a sacrifice, no matter how much he personally hated it. He'd accept their choices, in the end.

How awful was it for Shen Wei to realise that Ye Zun had taken his enemy's place

OWWWWW.

[china_shop]

Thanks! It was supposed to be, like, two paragraphs long, but it kept growing and acquiring more screencaps! ;-p

Everything you say about the Rebel Chieftain and the Envoy losing people against him again and again, unable to protect them just like he was unable to protect Ye Zun, is gold. That makes 100% sense to me! And I do agree it's a good reason why the Envoy might be afraid in battle sometimes.

\o/!! (Poor, poor Shen Wei! And not even a friend to comfort him until Kunlun shows up! And he probably didn't even really realise what he was missing!)

FWIW, when we talked in the other post about how him wearing the mask to hide his fear was about the past, I didn't take you to mean he's never afraid now, just that that's not his main reason for wearing the mask

Ah, good point. Thanks -- yes.

By the time he meets Kunlun he's no longer wearing the mask to hide, though it still does hide his emotions, of course - he's wearing it as a declaration of power, just as much. It's inseparable from his image and identity, the way he presents himself to the world and the way others see him.

Ooh, yes. This whole para, but especially this, because it also makes sense of his gradually stopping wearing the mask for Envoy stuff in contemporary times. He already has the power and the status -- the mask (and the compartmentalisation it represents) is no long so necessary.

and he's not the type of person who wouldn't respect another's choice to make a sacrifice, no matter how much he personally hated it. He'd accept their choices, in the end.

Another excellent point. When he sees them as individuals, rather than (through the lens of past trauma) proxies for his brother, he would absolutely respect their choices.

OWWWWW.

Right?????

[trobadora]

And he probably didn't even really realise what he was missing!

Yeah! Poor Shen Wei indeed, having to deal with all of that on his own.

Ooh, yes. This whole para, but especially this, because it also makes sense of his gradually stopping wearing the mask for Envoy stuff in contemporary times. He already has the power and the status -- the mask (and the compartmentalisation it represents) is no long so necessary.

Yes! He doesn't need to make a statement like that any more; his name is statement enough. And once he decides he can relax on the compartmentalisation, the mask no longer serves a purpose.

(The whole thing about him more and more Envoying in plain clothes is something I'd really love to see explored more, especially how he makes that decision ...)

[sef1029]

Afterword covers my ideas about why Shen Wei began to mask himself. (And why Ye Zun did, as well.)

[china_shop]

Oh, awesome -- thanks! *downloads onto my Kindle*

[salamandras]

In light of this, the Envoy's soldiers repeatedly dying in battle against that same man must be pretty traumatic, right? The worst moment of my life keeps happening again and again! Every soldier who dies this way must remind him of his failure to protect Didi. In the conversation with Kunlun, he even refers to his soldiers as "a thousand brothers" and "my remaining brothers."
Oh, ouch, I hadn't thought of it this way before. I'll be over here crying for poor Shen Wei some more.

In conclusion, my theory goes: 1) Shen Wei was traumatised by his first meeting with the Rebel Chieftain-to-be, and this informs every choice he makes thereafter; 2) it's quite possible the Rebel Chieftain is specifically targeting the Envoy and his men, for personal reasons as well as broader strategic ones, ugh; and 3) Kunlun is everything that is good in the world, wrapped up in one extremely attractive package.

Q1. Do you agree with this interpretation?
I do. I'd never thought about it before, but since Ye Zun shares his face, of course the Chieftain recognizes Shen Wei. It would fit his character to be cruel about it and make it personal, too.

I can't really coherently address your other questions. I look forward to reading other people's responses, though!

[china_shop]

I'll be over here crying for poor Shen Wei some more.
Right? *cries with*

but since Ye Zun shares his face, of course the Chieftain recognizes Shen Wei.
Yes, and Shen Wei's style of clothing hasn't changed much since he was a kid, either.

<3 <3 <3

[trepkos]

You make some excellent points - thank you!

[china_shop]

Thanks! :-)

[elenothar]

Excellent post with excellent ideas (as usual!). This bit in particular struck me:

I think he's specifically afraid of failing to protect those who depend on him and, especially, of failing to protect them from That Particular Asshole. Kunlun saved him from that failure, in that first battle we see, and that's one of the reasons Kunlun's arrival made such a profound difference in the Envoy's life, even before they'd really had a chance to talk.

That sounds very Shen Wei to me, and does add a dimension to his pretty immediate devotion to Kunlun that makes it sit a little easier with me. I always felt that I hadn't quite grasped why Shen Wei is so immediately ride or die for him beyond the obvious (and mildly shallow). Something I'll continue to ponder.

Maybe masks are part of Dixing culture, cf all the masked customers in the bar in ep 17. Do you have a theory for how it started?

It's interesting to consider whether that's always been the case, or if masks being part of the culture are a post HPS phenomenon. We get enough hints that he's, in principle, a revered hero (that in canon itself we don't so much see that in action, mostly because of Ye Zun's manipulations) - that kind of figure from the old times could easily make an impact, that over the years mutates into something independent.

If Kunlun hadn't arrived just then, when the Envoy was at his lowest, would the Envoy have stuck with his decision to continue on alone, even if it risked losing the war?

I can't really see Shen Wei risking losing the war to attempt to go it alone, practically speaking. He seems to be very aware of the responsibilities and duties on his shoulders, with peace as his final go. Besides, he's too smart not to realise that only a lasting peace will truly make those under his command safe - unless he could find a strategy that relied solely on him with maximum impact (nothing immediately comes to mind...), imo he would dream of being able to just fight alone and keep everyone else safe, but he wouldn't implement it.

How awful was it for Shen Wei to realise that Ye Zun had taken his enemy's place (and in some sense, literally become him, given Ye Zun ate him and absorbed his power?).

Well, thanks for that heartrending thought 😭

[trobadora]

imo he would dream of being able to just fight alone and keep everyone else safe, but he wouldn't implement it

Yeah, unless he had some kind of strategy that he really thought would work better, ultimately that's where I fall too.

[china_shop]

He is super smart. He might come up with something...

[elenothar]

He'd be quite ready to throw himself on the one man crusade sword if there was a reasonable chance of winning with it, but the conflict isn't really set up in a way that can be won by one person, even one very powerful and determined person.

[china_shop]

Thanks! I'm glad it works for you. <3

That sounds very Shen Wei to me, and does add a dimension to his pretty immediate devotion to Kunlun that makes it sit a little easier with me. I always felt that I hadn't quite grasped why Shen Wei is so immediately ride or die for him beyond the obvious

Yeah. I mean, there's the "if you want to compensate me, take off your mask and smile" line in the headquarters, which is probably wildly outside any of his previous experience (and wildly inappropriately personal), but his delighted exclamation of "Benefactor!" comes before that.

It's interesting to consider whether that's always been the case, or if masks being part of the culture are a post HPS phenomenon.

Oh, good point! And then he shows up at the pub where everyone's wearing HPS-inspired facewear and claims to be the Envoy himself, and no one believes him...

I can't really see Shen Wei risking losing the war to attempt to go it alone, practically speaking. He seems to be very aware of the responsibilities and duties on his shoulders, with peace as his final go. Besides, he's too smart not to realise that only a lasting peace will truly make those under his command safe - unless he could find a strategy that relied solely on him with maximum impact (nothing immediately comes to mind...), imo he would dream of being able to just fight alone and keep everyone else safe, but he wouldn't implement it.

Yes, I 100% agree with all of this. Unless he thought he could actually win (eg, with the help of Kunlun and his fancy new weapon), it's just frustration talking.

Well, thanks for that heartrending thought 😭

Sorry! *sends kittens*

[miss_ingno]

It's interesting to consider whether that's always been the case, or if masks being part of the culture are a post HPS phenomenon. We get enough hints that he's, in principle, a revered hero (that in canon itself we don't so much see that in action, mostly because of Ye Zun's manipulations) - that kind of figure from the old times could easily make an impact, that over the years mutates into something independent.

I am *here* for Shen Wei accidentally starting a masks trend in Dixing that's since grown into an ancient tradition, maybe having a revival movement now that Heipaoshi is back? 👀 (oh man imagine it being like flower language and similar things, the carvings, swirls, symbols, colours, all of them having different meanings!)

I can't really see Shen Wei risking losing the war to attempt to go it alone, practically speaking. [...] unless he could find a strategy that relied solely on him with maximum impact (nothing immediately comes to mind...), imo he would dream of being able to just fight alone and keep everyone else safe, but he wouldn't implement it.

I'm curious, do you think Shen Wei would consider assassinating the rebel chief? Or would that be dishonorable? Challenging him to a 1-on-1 duel might also be an option, though I'm sure Shen Wei is aware that the rebel chief would cheat the moment he starts losing.

[elenothar]

I am *here* for Shen Wei accidentally starting a masks trend in Dixing that's since grown into an ancient tradition, maybe having a revival movement now that Heipaoshi is back? 👀 (oh man imagine it being like flower language and similar things, the carvings, swirls, symbols, colours, all of them having different meanings!)

That'd be lovely to explore! (Shen Wei would be so confused - his wearing a mask was always for a reason, after all, but I wonder if it wouldn't make him glad to see a more joyous usage of it.)

I'm curious, do you think Shen Wei would consider assassinating the rebel chief? Or would that be dishonorable? Challenging him to a 1-on-1 duel might also be an option, though I'm sure Shen Wei is aware that the rebel chief would cheat the moment he starts losing.

I think he'd definitely consider it, sure - the rebel chief has already proven that he isn't honourable in the slightest, so I don't think that would necessary be an impediment for Shen Wei, who seems to be pretty pragmatic about fighting-related things (1-on-1 duel I think wouldn't fly simply because the rebel chief wouldn't agree to it in the first place, having no hope of winning). The bigger problem I see is that I'm not sure canon supports the idea that the rebels would collapse without the rebel chief - he's not a king or the like, with real figurehead status. Chances would be that someone else would slide into the gap and the fighting would just continue (as sort of happened with Ye Zun). So unless there's pretty good evidence the chief's death would severely impact the rebels, the risk would be pretty high for that move.

[miss_ingno]

It's definitely a valid interpretation of what canon presented us! :D

In light of this, the Envoy's soldiers repeatedly dying in battle against that same man must be pretty traumatic, right? The worst moment of my life keeps happening again and again! Every soldier who dies this way must remind him of his failure to protect Didi.

I think it's definitely a reminder of that time This Asshole killed Didi <.< which is not gonna help Shen Wei heal from/cope with his trauma RIP. Depending on what happened to make him the sole caretaker of Ye Zun and how traumatic losing his family/community was, it's surprising how well-adjusted Shen Wei turns out by the end of everything. Not that surprising he'd want to hide his vulnerability though, and huh I wonder how much of this trauma influenced his tight control/retraint of himself... (One of my personal fave interpretations of the twins is how they both cope with trauma via Control, a pretty typical response to a situation where they felt helpless and the lack of control. But whereas Shen Wei exercises that control on *himself*, Ye Zun tries to turn it into control of the *outside*, manipulating others to his goals, trying to take over the world/burning it down.) In light of the theme of "control", the rebel chief regularly proves to Shen Wei that he's still not in control, that the rebels can wrench it away from his hands no matter how hard he tries. Which I bring up because I could see that also going into his decision to wear a mask? He's (not yet) in control of his emotions/expressing them, so he needs the mask as an aid to hide his true feelings.

In the conversation with Kunlun, he even refers to his soldiers as "a thousand brothers" and "my remaining brothers."

My Chinese is practically non-existant, but I'm relatively sure it's more of an army-brothers/comrades word used, though the point of Shen Wei feeling responsible for them (and their deaths) still stands. And is even more heartbreaking in this context 🥺

I wonder when the rebel chief learned Shen Wei = Heipaoshi! I think when you set that realization would have a pretty great effect on how much of a personal vendetta this is. Like, is the above scene the first unmasking? Was Shen Wei not wearing a mask at first then came face-to-face with the rebel chief on the battlefield, recognizing him as the Didi-Killer? Because I can totally see Shen Wei pledging himself to the cause of protecting the innocents from these attacks without knowing that. But knowing it, possibly with the rebel chief taunting him after recognizing him, I could see that being the moment Shen Wei decides he needs a mask.

Although I can also see Shen Wei donning a mask to look more mature/hide his youth! Like in your fic, Mask and Recompense.

As to the rebel chief's motivations, it's very much free real estate. Personally, I think I land more on the side of strategic value - if Shen Wei didn't turn out to be such a powerful warrior, I could easily see the rebel chief playing cat and mouse with him for his own sick pleasure, but since Shen Wei actually proves himself a threat (and possibly immune to the mind control? It seems to be a relatively subtle power the way Ye Zun uses it, but I don't know how much that's Ye Zun being more subtle or the limits of the power itself. Either way, I can see Shen Wei being able to shake it off more easy knowing this man killed his brother, which is why the rebel chief went to such lengths to lie to Ye Zun about Shen Wei abandoning him. Aside from, you know, the gaslighting and emotional manipulation abuser tactics working well to keep Ye Zun down).

Though, if the rebel chief knows who Shen Wei is, that actually puts a new light on his treatment of Ye Zun. Because he ended up with the "weak", sick twin and then his brother turns out to be super powerful, something the rebel chief would love to have in his control. How mad must he be to have picked the useless twin? (Even if he's afraid he could never control HPS 👀)

Q3. If Kunlun hadn't arrived just then, when the Envoy was at his lowest, would the Envoy have stuck with his decision to continue on alone, even if it risked losing the war? Would his remaining soldiers, who were fighting because they believed in him and the cause, have just stood by while he tried to sideline them? Would Ma Gui and Fu You have attempted to persuade him to use every tool at his disposal to win?

I could definitely see Shen Wei trying to go at it on his own (if he has a plan with reasonable enough chance of success without endangering the Alliance/his people, he would risk himself but not others I don't think), but his men being too loyal to allow him to, following him against orders. Especially considering how clearly he cares for them, trying to save as many of them as possible, some of them likely owe their lives to him. Something Shen Wei probably realizes so it would lead to him having to sneak off on his own to do His Thing, whichever it is.

And re: Ma Gui and Fu You, if Kunlun doesn't show up that means they never got the reassurance of winning the war, I think they would probably push harder when it seems like they're losing. And with Shen Wei learning to hide better and better, I'm not sure they'd notice soon enough where his head is at? Or perhaps they do but don't see the danger in that, they're all getting frustrated/scared. I can definitely see this exploding in a disagreement or similar, where tempers flare and things everyone regrets are said, but that Shen Wei takes too heavily to heart...

[trobadora]

One of my personal fave interpretations of the twins is how they both cope with trauma via Control, a pretty typical response to a situation where they felt helpless and the lack of control. But whereas Shen Wei exercises that control on *himself*, Ye Zun tries to turn it into control of the *outside*, manipulating others to his goals, trying to take over the world/burning it down.

Yes! This!

My Chinese is practically non-existant, but I'm relatively sure it's more of an army-brothers/comrades word used

The word is 兄弟, which is both literal figurative brothers.

I wonder when the rebel chief learned Shen Wei = Heipaoshi!

Yes, very good question! Hm, it's entirely possible that he recognised Shen Wei even with him wearing the mask, since Ye Zun wears a mask too.

Because he ended up with the "weak", sick twin and then his brother turns out to be super powerful, something the rebel chief would love to have in his control. How mad must he be to have picked the useless twin?

Yeah, I always figured that was part of it! My headcanon is that he could recognise either the potential in the twins, or the already realised power in Shen Wei, and he thought he could mould Ye Zun's soon-to-manifest for his purposes, but then that never happened ...

And with Shen Wei learning to hide better and better, I'm not sure they'd notice soon enough where his head is at?

Yeah, that's a good point. They're not close; they don't seem to be friendly with him as they are with each other. They're allies, but it feels more like a business relationship, a shared goal. And with him keeping himself under tight control, at least on the outside, They might not recognise anything was going on with him at all.

[china_shop]

Oops, sorry for the belated reply! I thought I'd already responded to this! *facepalm*

I think it's definitely a reminder of that time This Asshole killed Didi <.< which is not gonna help Shen Wei heal from/cope with his trauma RIP. Depending on what happened to make him the sole caretaker of Ye Zun and how traumatic losing his family/community was, it's surprising how well-adjusted Shen Wei turns out by the end of everything.

It really is. He's very resilient. (I guess there were a lot of people around in similar situations at the time, too? Like, probably a lot of his soldiers/peers. I wonder if that makes a difference.)

One of my personal fave interpretations of the twins is how they both cope with trauma via Control, a pretty typical response to a situation where they felt helpless and the lack of control. But whereas Shen Wei exercises that control on *himself*, Ye Zun tries to turn it into control of the *outside*, manipulating others to his goals, trying to take over the world/burning it down.

Oh, that's really cool framing. Awesome!!

Which I bring up because I could see that also going into his decision to wear a mask? He's (not yet) in control of his emotions/expressing them, so he needs the mask as an aid to hide his true feelings.

*nodnod* That makes sense.

I wonder when the rebel chief learned Shen Wei = Heipaoshi! I think when you set that realization would have a pretty great effect on how much of a personal vendetta this is. Like, is the above scene the first unmasking? Was Shen Wei not wearing a mask at first then came face-to-face with the rebel chief on the battlefield, recognizing him as the Didi-Killer? Because I can totally see Shen Wei pledging himself to the cause of protecting the innocents from these attacks without knowing that. But knowing it, possibly with the rebel chief taunting him after recognizing him, I could see that being the moment Shen Wei decides he needs a mask.

Yeah, I could go either way on that. (Shen Wei's dress sense hasn't changed since he was a kid, but we don't know how common it is; Ye Zun wears a mask too, sometimes, but even so, it seems like masks are supposed to make people completely unidentifiable (eg, ZYL doesn't seem to recognise the young Envoy until his mask is knocked off).) Lots of fun options to play with there. :-)

Personally, I think I land more on the side of strategic value - if Shen Wei didn't turn out to be such a powerful warrior, I could easily see the rebel chief playing cat and mouse with him for his own sick pleasure, but since Shen Wei actually proves himself a threat

Could be both? Or the Rebel Chief could be playing up their past because he knows it unnerves Shen Wei? It doesn't have to be objectively true -- it just has to plausibly seem that way to Shen Wei, you know?

And re: Ma Gui and Fu You, if Kunlun doesn't show up that means they never got the reassurance of winning the war

Hmm, maybe. I think for them, the reassurance came with the Hallows conference calls, which they received before ZYL showed up. But yeah, if Shen Wei's crisis of hope happened before even the millennia-spanning conference call, who knows how things would have turned out...

<3 <3 <3

[awanderingcoyote]

AHH! What an excellent post!!!! So much goodness to dig into here :D

Q1. Do you agree with this interpretation? I agree that SW is not one to be scared of violence or fights, in the whole fitefitefite sense of it, but that it's the whole letting the people who fight by his side down, which could lead to injury and/or death depending on the situation. That responsibility that Shen Wei is so good at shouldering and taking ownership of. Combine that with the Rebel leader being something of Darth Vader for him (sorry my brain is stuck in Star Wars land right now) as both proof of his failure to protect those he loves (Ye Zun), but also the mistakes he's made (not protecting Ye Zun as well as whatever perceived mistakes have been made in previous battles he's had with him) is like a constant running the gauntlet for young Shen Wei. My brain can't find better words but hopefully the above makes sense :D :D

Q2. There are lots of reasons why Shen Wei might have begun wearing a mask -- for example, to hide his youth and inexperience as well as his fear. If it was just about intimidating his enemies, why keep wearing it amongst his allies? Maybe he felt he needed to impress Fu You and Ma Gui so they would allow him to join their alliance. Maybe masks are part of Dixing culture, cf all the masked customers in the bar in ep 17. Do you have a theory for how it started? (Links to fanworks on this subject also very welcome!) - I like this a lot. Perhaps also to hide his own expressions from everyone as well. He's younger here and perhaps doesn't have complete control of hiding everything he feels behind what we see in present-day with the 'polite innocent professor' mask he deploys to throw people off his scent. And perhaps the masked scene in the bar became something because of Hei Pao Shi wearing one! Though my brain always felt that the masks were worn to give a subtle nod to the book, where from what I understand they were ghosts/demons (I have not read the book so I could totally be wrong here), but I'm down for YOHE HPS starting a new trend which gets incorporated into their culture/beliefs/etc.

Q3. If Kunlun hadn't arrived just then, when the Envoy was at his lowest, would the Envoy have stuck with his decision to continue on alone, even if it risked losing the war? Would his remaining soldiers, who were fighting because they believed in him and the cause, have just stood by while he tried to sideline them? Would Ma Gui and Fu You have attempted to persuade him to use every tool at his disposal to win? (I feel like ZYL being there and stepping up meant that none of these questions got answered, but some of the Envoy's men do turn up just as Shen Wei follows Ye Zun into the energy seal, so either the Envoy hadn't told them to stand down yet, or they were defying orders.) - My brain goes to it depends on the situation at hand-ish? XD Like perhaps if that was the only thing they had left to try to win the war, he'd go down the road of self-sacrificing, but I think with the people and the soldiers, and everything they're trying to do as a group Shen Wei wouldn't go off on his to do that. He's a general for a reason - smart, tactics, powerful, etc - and even though he's young, he surely knows that one person against an army rarely works, no matter how strong they are power wise.

Q4. How awful was it for Shen Wei to realise that Ye Zun had taken his enemy's place (and in some sense, literally become him, given Ye Zun ate him and absorbed his power?). - I think pretty devastating. I'm not sure my brain can put into words what it wants to right this moment, so let me ponder more and I will add a second comment :D

AHH this was such a great write-up/meta post!!!! I have more words but I must run to work, but I wanted to post a reply to this awesome post!!

[china_shop]

I agree that SW is not one to be scared of violence or fights, in the whole fitefitefite sense of it, but that it's the whole letting the people who fight by his side down, which could lead to injury and/or death depending on the situation. That responsibility that Shen Wei is so good at shouldering and taking ownership of. Combine that with the Rebel leader being something of Darth Vader for him (sorry my brain is stuck in Star Wars land right now) as both proof of his failure to protect those he loves (Ye Zun), but also the mistakes he's made (not protecting Ye Zun as well as whatever perceived mistakes have been made in previous battles he's had with him) is like a constant running the gauntlet for young Shen Wei.

Yes, I agree. I feel like that worry is happening at a fairly background level -- it's not like he ever freezes in a fight or gets really unnerved -- but the awareness of it must always be there, that constant protecting those around him and guarding against failure. *pets him* (Hee! The Star Wars parallel is making me grin. :D :D :D)

I like this a lot. Perhaps also to hide his own expressions from everyone as well. He's younger here and perhaps doesn't have complete control of hiding everything he feels behind what we see in present-day with the 'polite innocent professor' mask he deploys to throw people off his scent.

He's definitely very open with Kunlun, isn't he? It would be so interesting to see how he was with other people in YOHE, without his mask. How much composure he has. I wish we saw more of that. (I find wearing a mask makes me lazier about having expressions and more likely to talk out loud to myself -- maybe he's just out of practice at thinking about what it's like to show his face to people, and that's why he's so open? :-)

And perhaps the masked scene in the bar became something because of Hei Pao Shi wearing one!

Hee! That would be funny, considering Shen Wei and alcohol. :D :D :D

Though my brain always felt that the masks were worn to give a subtle nod to the book, where from what I understand they were ghosts/demons (I have not read the book so I could totally be wrong here)

Oh, of course. I haven't read the book either, so I forget to factor that in. *facepalm* Thanks for making that connection! :-)

My brain goes to it depends on the situation at hand-ish? XD Like perhaps if that was the only thing they had left to try to win the war, he'd go down the road of self-sacrificing, but I think with the people and the soldiers, and everything they're trying to do as a group Shen Wei wouldn't go off on his to do that. He's a general for a reason - smart, tactics, powerful, etc - and even though he's young, he surely knows that one person against an army rarely works, no matter how strong they are power wise.

Yeah, I completely agree. It would just be too great a risk unless he had a strategy for actually turning the tide somehow. I think he's just feeling a bit hopeless here, because of what happened in the battle, and unlike Fu You and Ma Gui, he hasn't talked to future ZYL, so he doesn't know they're going to win.

Thanks so much for your comment. Really great thoughts! <3 <3 <3