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sid_guardian2022-06-25 09:49 am
china_shop) wrote in sid_guardian2022-06-25 09:49 am
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Ep 34: "I don't want my remaining brothers to sacrifice themselves anymore" (meta)
I'm just going to look at the first few lines of the young Envoy and Kunlun's conversation on the clifftop in YOHE (ep 34, 38:28-39:56). (I hope someone either does a proper scene post for this scene sometime, or people pick other excerpts to bounce off/look at in depth, because the YOHE conversations are just crammed full of delicious character moments and juicy potential meta!)
Viki subs, very slightly edited by me.
The Envoy and Kunlun have a serious talk as they take a moonlit stroll.
Envoy: A thousand brothers put their faith in me, but now only a few are left.
上千个兄弟 那么的信任我 可如今却没剩几个了
A peace obtained in exchange for blood -- for those who have bled, is it really fair?
用鲜血去换取的和平 对于那些流血的人来说 真的公平吗
Kunlun: But you would still choose this road -- sacrificing a few people in exchange for thousands of years of peace for the majority. You just lack the final step before you can fulfill it.
可你还是会选这条路 以少数人的牺牲 来换取多数人千百年来的安生 只差最后一步就可以实现了
The Envoy has had a really crappyday war; Kunlun is supportive in a "keep going, it's worth it" kind of way.
Envoy: But I must take this step on my own. I don't want my remaining brothers to sacrifice themselves anymore.
可是这一步 我必须自己去走 我不想让剩下来的兄弟 再去牺牲了
Kunlun: You still have me.
你还有我
Kunlun steals the mask and compliments Shen Wei's looks, then:
Kunlun: No, why do you insist on wearing this ugly mask?
不是 你没事总戴这么丑不拉几面具干吗呀
The Envoy looks down at the mask that is the only face he ever shows anyone.
Envoy: When I am killing my enemies, I will feel afraid. When I put on this mask, they can't see my expression. They will think that I do not get afraid. Then they will be scared of me instead.
我杀敌的时候 会害怕 我戴上这个面具 敌人就看不到我的表情了 他们以为 我不会害怕 自然就会怕我了
Zhao Yunlan is a little bit heartbroken, but Shen Wei is pleased with his plan to hide any sign of vulnerability.
I was having a great conversation about this exchange recently, and thinking about it, I started to wonder how much it's intended to be read in the context (which we don't get until ep 40) of bb!Shen Wei's encounter with the future Rebel Chieftain.
BB!Shen Wei disagrees with the future leader of the Rebels about whether murder is okay.
The future leader of the Rebels does not take criticism well.
What I mean is that, long before the Rebel Army was assembled, the not-yet-Chieftain tried to recruit bb!Shen Wei, they argued about morality, and the future Chieftain threw the future Envoy over a cliff and appeared to kill his brother.
In light of this, the Envoy's soldiers repeatedly dying in battle against that same man must be pretty traumatic, right? The worst moment of my life keeps happening again and again! Every soldier who dies this way must remind him of his failure to protect Didi. In the conversation with Kunlun, he even refers to his soldiers as "a thousand brothers" and "my remaining brothers."
This also neatly explains why the fearsome Envoy might sometimes be afraid in battle.
The Rebel Chieftain advances. The Envoy is wounded. At least three of the Envoy's men are down,
and the remainder are hurt and terribly outnumbered while still valiantly trying to hold the Chieftain at bay.)
The Envoy is backed against a cliff, losing ground, with unsteady footing.
The Envoy looks down at his inevitable fate. The Rebel Chieftain smirks like
"I already threw you over one cliff and killed your only surviving family -- I'm gonna do it again."
I think it's really telling that in the first YOHE battle we see, the Envoy is backed towards a cliff by the same man who dropped him over a cliff and murdered his twin years before. It's very natural for that to be frightening. (And fwiw, given how unpractised the Envoy is at confiding in people, I think he only manages to be so candid about his fear with Kunlun because a) Kunlun is a very good listener for him specifically, b) Kunlun has unhesitatingly vowed to fight at his side and obviously cares about him, and c) only that afternoon, the Rebel Chieftain unmasked Shen Wei and smirked at the fear on his face. Whether hiding his fear was his motive for first adopting the mask or not, it's the salient reason for him tonight, fresh from that confrontation.)
What's more, I think it's reasonable for Shen Wei to have the impression that the Rebel Chieftain is particularly violent towards the Envoy's army because of their history (and he might even be right: the Chieftain has good reason to want to off Shen Wei before he learns Ye Zun has been enslaved, and he doesn't want Ye Zun discovering the truth about what happened, either). If the Envoy feels like his men are getting caught in the crossfire of a personal vendetta, that would make the burden of his losses fall even more heavily on his shoulders.
Accordingly, the young Envoy resolves that, from here on out, he'll go it alone.
I don't think the Envoy is scared in general or flinches from violence, and I don't think he's a martyr. I think he's specifically afraid of failing to protect those who depend on him and, especially, of failing to protect them from That Particular Asshole. Kunlun saved him from that failure, in that first battle we see, and that's one of the reasons Kunlun's arrival made such a profound difference in the Envoy's life, even before they'd really had a chance to talk.
In conclusion, my theory goes: 1) Shen Wei was traumatised by his first meeting with the Rebel Chieftain-to-be, and this informs every choice he makes thereafter; 2) it's quite possible the Rebel Chieftain is specifically targeting the Envoy and his men, for personal reasons as well as broader strategic ones, ugh; and 3) Kunlun is everything that is good in the world, wrapped up in one extremely attractive package.
Q1. Do you agree with this interpretation?
Q2. There are lots of reasons why Shen Wei might have begun wearing a mask -- for example, to hide his youth and inexperience as well as his fear. If it was just about intimidating his enemies, why keep wearing it amongst his allies? Maybe he felt he needed to impress Fu You and Ma Gui so they would allow him to join their alliance. Maybe masks are part of Dixing culture, cf all the masked customers in the bar in ep 17. Do you have a theory for how it started? (Links to fanworks on this subject also very welcome!)
Q3. If Kunlun hadn't arrived just then, when the Envoy was at his lowest, would the Envoy have stuck with his decision to continue on alone, even if it risked losing the war? Would his remaining soldiers, who were fighting because they believed in him and the cause, have just stood by while he tried to sideline them? Would Ma Gui and Fu You have attempted to persuade him to use every tool at his disposal to win? (I feel like ZYL being there and stepping up meant that none of these questions got answered, but some of the Envoy's men do turn up just as Shen Wei follows Ye Zun into the energy seal, so either the Envoy hadn't told them to stand down yet, or they were defying orders.)
Q4. How awful was it for Shen Wei to realise that Ye Zun had taken his enemy's place (and in some sense, literally become him, given Ye Zun ate him and absorbed his power?).
Viki subs, very slightly edited by me.
The Envoy and Kunlun have a serious talk as they take a moonlit stroll.
Envoy: A thousand brothers put their faith in me, but now only a few are left.
上千个兄弟 那么的信任我 可如今却没剩几个了
A peace obtained in exchange for blood -- for those who have bled, is it really fair?
用鲜血去换取的和平 对于那些流血的人来说 真的公平吗
Kunlun: But you would still choose this road -- sacrificing a few people in exchange for thousands of years of peace for the majority. You just lack the final step before you can fulfill it.
可你还是会选这条路 以少数人的牺牲 来换取多数人千百年来的安生 只差最后一步就可以实现了
The Envoy has had a really crappy
Envoy: But I must take this step on my own. I don't want my remaining brothers to sacrifice themselves anymore.
可是这一步 我必须自己去走 我不想让剩下来的兄弟 再去牺牲了
Kunlun: You still have me.
你还有我
Kunlun steals the mask and compliments Shen Wei's looks, then:
Kunlun: No, why do you insist on wearing this ugly mask?
不是 你没事总戴这么丑不拉几面具干吗呀
The Envoy looks down at the mask that is the only face he ever shows anyone.
Envoy: When I am killing my enemies, I will feel afraid. When I put on this mask, they can't see my expression. They will think that I do not get afraid. Then they will be scared of me instead.
我杀敌的时候 会害怕 我戴上这个面具 敌人就看不到我的表情了 他们以为 我不会害怕 自然就会怕我了
Zhao Yunlan is a little bit heartbroken, but Shen Wei is pleased with his plan to hide any sign of vulnerability.
I was having a great conversation about this exchange recently, and thinking about it, I started to wonder how much it's intended to be read in the context (which we don't get until ep 40) of bb!Shen Wei's encounter with the future Rebel Chieftain.
BB!Shen Wei disagrees with the future leader of the Rebels about whether murder is okay.
The future leader of the Rebels does not take criticism well.
What I mean is that, long before the Rebel Army was assembled, the not-yet-Chieftain tried to recruit bb!Shen Wei, they argued about morality, and the future Chieftain threw the future Envoy over a cliff and appeared to kill his brother.
In light of this, the Envoy's soldiers repeatedly dying in battle against that same man must be pretty traumatic, right? The worst moment of my life keeps happening again and again! Every soldier who dies this way must remind him of his failure to protect Didi. In the conversation with Kunlun, he even refers to his soldiers as "a thousand brothers" and "my remaining brothers."
This also neatly explains why the fearsome Envoy might sometimes be afraid in battle.
The Rebel Chieftain advances. The Envoy is wounded. At least three of the Envoy's men are down,
and the remainder are hurt and terribly outnumbered while still valiantly trying to hold the Chieftain at bay.)
The Envoy is backed against a cliff, losing ground, with unsteady footing.
The Envoy looks down at his inevitable fate. The Rebel Chieftain smirks like
"I already threw you over one cliff and killed your only surviving family -- I'm gonna do it again."
I think it's really telling that in the first YOHE battle we see, the Envoy is backed towards a cliff by the same man who dropped him over a cliff and murdered his twin years before. It's very natural for that to be frightening. (And fwiw, given how unpractised the Envoy is at confiding in people, I think he only manages to be so candid about his fear with Kunlun because a) Kunlun is a very good listener for him specifically, b) Kunlun has unhesitatingly vowed to fight at his side and obviously cares about him, and c) only that afternoon, the Rebel Chieftain unmasked Shen Wei and smirked at the fear on his face. Whether hiding his fear was his motive for first adopting the mask or not, it's the salient reason for him tonight, fresh from that confrontation.)
What's more, I think it's reasonable for Shen Wei to have the impression that the Rebel Chieftain is particularly violent towards the Envoy's army because of their history (and he might even be right: the Chieftain has good reason to want to off Shen Wei before he learns Ye Zun has been enslaved, and he doesn't want Ye Zun discovering the truth about what happened, either). If the Envoy feels like his men are getting caught in the crossfire of a personal vendetta, that would make the burden of his losses fall even more heavily on his shoulders.
Accordingly, the young Envoy resolves that, from here on out, he'll go it alone.
I don't think the Envoy is scared in general or flinches from violence, and I don't think he's a martyr. I think he's specifically afraid of failing to protect those who depend on him and, especially, of failing to protect them from That Particular Asshole. Kunlun saved him from that failure, in that first battle we see, and that's one of the reasons Kunlun's arrival made such a profound difference in the Envoy's life, even before they'd really had a chance to talk.
In conclusion, my theory goes: 1) Shen Wei was traumatised by his first meeting with the Rebel Chieftain-to-be, and this informs every choice he makes thereafter; 2) it's quite possible the Rebel Chieftain is specifically targeting the Envoy and his men, for personal reasons as well as broader strategic ones, ugh; and 3) Kunlun is everything that is good in the world, wrapped up in one extremely attractive package.
Q1. Do you agree with this interpretation?
Q2. There are lots of reasons why Shen Wei might have begun wearing a mask -- for example, to hide his youth and inexperience as well as his fear. If it was just about intimidating his enemies, why keep wearing it amongst his allies? Maybe he felt he needed to impress Fu You and Ma Gui so they would allow him to join their alliance. Maybe masks are part of Dixing culture, cf all the masked customers in the bar in ep 17. Do you have a theory for how it started? (Links to fanworks on this subject also very welcome!)
Q3. If Kunlun hadn't arrived just then, when the Envoy was at his lowest, would the Envoy have stuck with his decision to continue on alone, even if it risked losing the war? Would his remaining soldiers, who were fighting because they believed in him and the cause, have just stood by while he tried to sideline them? Would Ma Gui and Fu You have attempted to persuade him to use every tool at his disposal to win? (I feel like ZYL being there and stepping up meant that none of these questions got answered, but some of the Envoy's men do turn up just as Shen Wei follows Ye Zun into the energy seal, so either the Envoy hadn't told them to stand down yet, or they were defying orders.)
Q4. How awful was it for Shen Wei to realise that Ye Zun had taken his enemy's place (and in some sense, literally become him, given Ye Zun ate him and absorbed his power?).
no subject
Yeah! Poor Shen Wei indeed, having to deal with all of that on his own.
Ooh, yes. This whole para, but especially this, because it also makes sense of his gradually stopping wearing the mask for Envoy stuff in contemporary times. He already has the power and the status -- the mask (and the compartmentalisation it represents) is no long so necessary.
Yes! He doesn't need to make a statement like that any more; his name is statement enough. And once he decides he can relax on the compartmentalisation, the mask no longer serves a purpose.
(The whole thing about him more and more Envoying in plain clothes is something I'd really love to see explored more, especially how he makes that decision ...)
no subject
His name, and also the blade. He uses that as a symbol/signifier several times, like when he introduces himself to Ying Chun.
The whole thing about him more and more Envoying in plain clothes is something I'd really love to see explored more, especially how he makes that decision ...
I wonder if it's part of a shift to identifying as a naturalised Haixing citizen (as well as being Dixingren, but he has primarily lived in Haixing for ~30 years by this stage), or whether it has to do with distancing himself from the awful goings on at the palace, or if it's something else entirely... Maybe he just likes to have plenty of pockets.
no subject
I'm not sure, but he's already wearing the Haixing clothes, so it may just be that he no longer feels the need to deliberately switch looks/identities. And yeah, maybe about the palace? Most people in Dixing don't run around in robes, after all. Idk. (I love the robes and mask, though. I want him to keep them! For, ahem, aesthetic reasons. *g*)
(There's a lot of room for pockets in those robes!)
no subject
True. Plus in Haixing it takes extra energy to maintain his Envoy form, right? So once he's contaminated with light energy, he might not want to spend the effort?
I love the robes and mask, though. I want him to keep them! For, ahem, aesthetic reasons. *g*
They are pleasingly dramatic. He should definitely keep them for ceremonial occasions, at least! :D
no subject
Yes, that's a great point!
They are pleasingly dramatic. He should definitely keep them for ceremonial occasions, at least! :D
And also "ceremonial occasions", if you catch my drift. :D
no subject
no subject
Yes, this! And what you say about Shen Wei being backed towards a cliff by the same guy who (he thinks) killed his brother - yes, exactly! I've never looked at that parallel in that context before, but it makes so much sense, and I agree, it's a very good reason why the Envoy might be afraid in battle sometimes.
The whole cliff thing is *such* a good parallel that I never noticed before and is now killing me
FWIW, I think he might have made a serious attempt, but his soldiers wouldn't have agreed, and he's not the type of person who wouldn't respect another's choice to make a sacrifice, no matter how much he personally hated it. He'd accept their choices, in the end.
This makes sense for me, too, for Shen Wei's personality. Though I can also see him not thinking of it until his soldiers make their choice loud and clear in the face of him trying to protect them by sidelining them... *ponders*
also the whole plainclothes Envoying discussion has me 👀 I haven't quite understood that cinematic choice (I love the robes so much Q.Q I wanted more robes scenes) aside from the lines blurring now that ZYL knows... but I suppose it does make sense for Shen Wei feeling like the various facets of his life are converging into one coherent whole, now that he has a partner who sees the person who he is and not just the masks he presents to the world
no subject
The whole cliff thing is *such* a good parallel that I never noticed before and is now killing me
Right???? Same here!
Though I can also see him not thinking of it until his soldiers make their choice loud and clear in the face of him trying to protect them by sidelining them... *ponders*
Yeah, they might have to insist a bit to make it clear to him. Which I do think they would; they're in this war for a reason after all.
I haven't quite understood that cinematic choice (I love the robes so much Q.Q I wanted more robes scenes) aside from the lines blurring now that ZYL knows... but I suppose it does make sense for Shen Wei feeling like the various facets of his life are converging into one coherent whole, now that he has a partner who sees the person who he is and not just the masks he presents to the world
Oh god, yeah, totally agreed on wanting more robes scenes! They're gorgeous, and I regret not getting more of them. But it does make sense to me that it shakes out this way, if he's no longer feeling the need to keep the different areas of his life so strictly separated - he starts out these scenes in Haixing, wearing Haixing clothes, so just not changing makes sense. But I wish we could have it the other way round too. (Hm, what's the opposite of Envoying in Haixing clothes - professoring in Envoy robes? I would love that!)
And IMO it's not just having a partner who knows both sides of him, it's also the entire political situation shifting so that the circumstances that made it the best choice to keep his identities separate no longer apply. For one, since Zhu Jiu confronts him, his enemies already know about it; keeping his Professor identity under wraps is no longer possible on that front. For another, the situation in Dixing is growing worse, whereas his relationship with the SID is improved, so there's less value in upholding the status quo where the Envoy maintains the balance between them and can only show mercy by hiding it from both ...
no subject
lmao what would even lead to that? An attack in the middle of lecture, quickly taken care of and then Shen Wei promptly forgetting to switch back? xD too little time in between a case and his next lecture? Post-canon negotiations in Dixing, a meeting running long and leaving him no time to find a perfectly tailored suit? Portalling straight into the classroom *rofl*
And IMO it's not just having a partner who knows both sides of him, it's also the entire political situation shifting so that the circumstances that made it the best choice to keep his identities separate no longer apply.
Mhmm, true! Plus it actually serves as something of a disguise within Dixing, he's less recognizable lacking robes (particularly noteworthy is his appearing when Zhao Yunlan was stabbed, in professor's clothing rather than robes, when he was wearing them when they split. I need to rewatch it to see if there was any reason for the change lol) I remember he needed to summon the glaive to intimidate An Bai & co into behaving. Unless I'm mixing up events?
So it actually helps obfuscate his identity as HPS from those *not* in the know without hindering his allies, who *are* in the know
For another, the situation in Dixing is growing worse, whereas his relationship with the SID is improved
Yeah, and it makes me kinda sad. I like that he's being accepted at the SID and building new friendships! But the situation in Dixing growing worse is :( because ultimately, Shen Wei is Dixingren and loyal to his people of origin and it's sad that his loyalty is repaid with hate (which tbf Ye Zun is fanning the flames of discontent to have the blame pinned on HPS specifically for his own reasons, and the Regent doesn't have a reason to curb that too much, and with Shen Wei away more often than not... yeah)
no subject
LOL! Maybe him being in Dixing, or at some negotiations, in his HPS role wearing the robes, and something relating to his area of expertise comes up, so you have HPS giving an impromptu bioengineering lecture? *g*
So it actually helps obfuscate his identity as HPS from those *not* in the know without hindering his allies, who *are* in the know
Yes, that's a very good point! Though he then goes and shows who he is in front of an entire bar full of Dixingren, to convince them he's really HPS. He seems to be switching into and out of his robes a lot during that Dixing trip!
And you're absolutely right about him summoning his dao to get An Bai and his friends to cooperate, but they already know who he is, so it's more of a threat of violence here than related to his identity.
Yeah, and it makes me kinda sad.
Same here, for exactly the reasons you mention! He deserves better.