Drive-by poll

[solo]

Poll #22618

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 39

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Yes, this is a subtitling question...

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Dixing people, person; guy from Dixing
4 (10.3%)

Dixingren
35 (89.7%)

Its complicated and I'll tell you why
0 (0.0%)

Comments

[extrapenguin]

Just form a demonym using one of the demonym suffixes English has? "Dixingian" has seen the most use, but you could also go for Dixingese, depending on taste.

[solo]

Yeah, my problem is, I don't like them. I find they sound weird. That's why I initially opted for the Dixing people thing, but it's really a bit unwieldy, and I've seen Dixingren used more and more in fic recently so I was wondering...

I like 'Dixingren' because it mirrors 'Yashou' in basically just being the transcription of the Chinese term.

Lovely, very appropriate icon!

[extrapenguin]

I've seen Dixingren used more and more in fic recently so I was wondering...
To me, using "Dixingren" is the equivalent of "Shen-jiaoshou" – there is a completely cromulent translation, so why the hell wouldn't people use that instead?

I like 'Dixingren' because it mirrors 'Yashou' in basically just being the transcription of the Chinese term.
But we hear "Yashouren" fairly often? The subs just use "Yashou" for both "Yashou" and "Yashouren".

Lovely, very appropriate icon!
Thank you! :3 Shen Wei is an alien, of course he deserves a starry icon.

[solo]

there is a completely cromulent translation

:DDDD Haven't heard that in *ages*!

But we hear "Yashouren" fairly often? The subs just use "Yashou" for both "Yashou" and "Yashouren".

True. But 'Yashou' by itself does get used in the show often enough to signify the species; unlike 'Dixing' which is only ever the place.

I made an executive decision early on to always use 'Yashou' because a) I didn't want people to get confused about a potential difference between Yashou and Yashouren/'Yashou people'; and also because Yashou is shorter which is always good for subs, and actually my main reason for testing the waters over Dixingren vs 'Dixing person / person from Dixing'.

[extrapenguin]

shorter which is always good for subs, and actually my main reason for testing the waters over Dixingren vs 'Dixing person / person from Dixing'.
Mm. Is your objection to just "Dixingian" or to any and all demonym suffixes? English has a plethora of them, so you could pick your favorite and the fandom would talk about Dixingines, Dixingites, Dixingers, Dixingiens, Dixingenes, Dixingensians, Dixingards, Dixingese, Dixingi, Dixingiotes, Dixingegians, Dixingonians, or Dixingovians. *g*

[xparrot]

The fact that, as per that Wiki page, English has SO MANY ways of making demonyms, I suspect is what makes it so easy for most native speakers to just accept "ren" as yet another suffix. It just doesn't sound that much more foreign to my ears than "Dixing" itself does.

The other problem, as pointed out below, is that "-ing" is an existing suffix already -- as in "Earthling" -- so putting any common ender on that looks weird, like you're double-stacking suffixes. I think that's a big part of why "Dixingren" just "sounds better" to a lot of us. If it were just Dixin I think it wouldn't throw us off as much?

[extrapenguin]

"Dixingren" just pings my "Just according to keikaku! [Translator's note: keikaku means plan]" argh, and I'm not alone. English has so many ways of making demonyms, surely at least one of them is acceptable?

[xparrot]

But "according to keikaku" is taking an English phrase and awkwardly inserting in the Japanese. "Dixingren" is the opposite of this -- as pointed out, there are a million different potential options for it, and none are weighted as more valid than the other. So rather than arbitrarily pick one of a dozen, why not just...call the people what they actually call themselves? If English was like Chinese and had one way of making demonyms, that would be one thing. But it's anything but that, so why not take advantage?

ETA My point being that English, being English, means if you use "Dixingren", most native speakers will immediately understand what you mean, because we're used to extrapolating demonyms like that. You don't need the "translator's note" because we naturally can intuit it.

Then again, I've always preferred using things like -kun and -sama and Nii-san in my anime subtitles and fic, because they're things that have no direct English translation, only rough equivalents.

[extrapenguin]

But "according to keikaku" is taking an English phrase and awkwardly inserting in the Japanese.
I probably should've explained this more – my objection is to the fact of the translation refusing to translate a term for which there is a translation. (And while there might be several possible ways to translate a demonym, the most common/unmarked translations would be Dixingan or Dixingian. The others are more ... having fun with the translation, in a way, if that makes sense?) It's as if the translation left 沈教授 as Shen-jiaoshou instead of translating it to Professor Shen. And just like with the 教授/Professor thing, in this case there is a direct English equivalent (in fact, many of them!) instead of there being zero English equivalents as with -kun and -sama (or -gege, for tha matter).

(There's also the matter of whether or not all the subtitle users will be native speakers – given the amount of Europeans from non-Anglophone countries, I'd say not – but that's a different conversation that's not germane to the matter at hand.)

[firestar]

*laughs* Of all the places to run into TVNihon's past howlers, a cdrama fandom was probably the last place I would expect to see it. XD

[extrapenguin]

The best bit is I didn't even watch the thing! Its memetic power is simply too strong. :P

[trobadora]

The other problem, as pointed out below, is that "-ing" is an existing suffix already

Yeah, I really think this is it. It didn't really click for me until you said "Dixin" - I went through the list of suffixes again, and suddenly they didn't sound so wrong.

"Dixingren" works for me.

[starandrea]

The fact that, as per that Wiki page, English has SO MANY ways of making demonyms, I suspect is what makes it so easy for most native speakers to just accept "ren" as yet another suffix.

Oh, that's a good point! That makes sense to me.

[solo]

Yes, the 'ing' in Dixing makes it so hard. Dixingling. >.

[xparrot]

Oh that's it! It should definitely be Dixingling!!

[starandrea]

I prefer "of Dixing" or "from Dixing," only because:

1) "Dixingren" is a half translation, which is very atypical as a group name in English ("Québécois" being the only other example that comes to mind), while at the same time,

2) the much more typical way of rendering a group name in English, by adding an English-sounding suffix like "-ian" or "-an," sounds natively incorrect when added to what we hear as an existing suffix sound, "-ing."

So neither "Dixingren" or "Dixingian" sounds very English, for what that's worth. :) (I should have picked "it's complicated," except you gave me a choice I like! ♥ So I didn't.)

[solo]

"Dixingren" is a half translation

Isn't it just a transcription?

the much more typical way of rendering a group name in English, by adding an English-sounding suffix like "-ian" or "-an," sounds natively incorrect when added to what we hear as an existing suffix sound, "-ing."

Absolutely, and that's why I decided not to use it from the start.

So neither "Dixingren" or "Dixingian" sounds very English, for what that's worth. :)

Agreed - I wasn't intending for it to sound English any more that I intend for Yashou, which I use, to sound English! :D

Thanks for the input, much appreciated!

[starandrea]

Oh, I should have added, I didn't mean to suggest that you personally should do it in any certain way! I love all the ways that people choose to combine languages! I'm just super intrigued by language use, and I'm afraid I went off on a bit of a ramble, there. As I am wont to do. :)

Isn't it just a transcription?

You're right, "half translation" was a terrible description! It's the pinyin of the Chinese characters, of course. Which we don't use in English for "Chinese" (or "Taiwanese," which is probably a better example of Chinese pinyin combined with English style people-suffixes, since the origin of "Chin" is so uncertain - the Qin people, possibly, from the Qin dynasty?) so although I do like the exotic sound of "Dixingren," its use doesn't have much of a precedent in the way English speakers typically adapt other group's names for themselves.

Absolutely, and that's why I decided not to use it from the start.

This was just me finally realizing why "Dixingian" sounds odd to my ear, even though does follow linguistic precedent in English. It's a much more common style for adapting the name of a people, but that "xing" syllable in Chinese does us in!

Agreed - I wasn't intending for it to sound English any more that I intend for Yashou, which I use, to sound English! :D

Totally fair! I'm all for loan words! ♥ We make "Dixing" and "Yashou" sound English by pronouncing them as an English speaker would, so I'm sure "Dixingren" can work the same way. Hopefully the use of "Dixingren" would be consistently mirrored by the use of "Haixingren" (instead of saying "Dixingren" and "people from Haixing"), so we don't introduce additional language bias into a society that already seems to have plenty. :)

Thanks for the interesting topic!

[solo]

Hopefully the use of "Dixingren" would be consistently mirrored by the use of "Haixingren" (instead of saying "Dixingren" and "people from Haixing"), so we don't introduce additional language bias into a society that already seems to have plenty. :)

Absolutely, where the show uses Haixingren! Sadly, though, it tends to refer mostly to 'humans'.

[ranalore]

I'm not getting into the various reasons why, because I was tired of having the debate over all of this fifteen years ago, but Dixingren is the molehill I will die on. That's all.

[solo]

Haha, in TVXQ fandom or in anime? I remember some discussions myself but never got involved. Sorry for triggering traumatic memories. :)

[ranalore]

I had it as a Californian even before dial-up fandom was a regular thing, and there have been iterations in the poetry field, as well. Then it kept cropping up in anime, manhwa, and K-pop fandoms. Don't worry, you didn't trigger me, I'm just stating for the record what my stance is and why I'm not entering into the debate about it. I recognize and acknowledge some people's concern about exoticization. My concern is erasure. That's really all I'm going to say about it.

[naye]

Can I join you on this molehill if I bring picnic? (Picnic might be lollipops.)

[ranalore]

Welcome! We'll have a picnic of lollipops and tea, since I always bring tea on my molehill sit-ins.

[jo_lasalle]

I find "Dixingian" both very intuitive and a little clunky-sounding (like a made-up term for a place that doesn't have a proper people name... um ^^), and "Dixingren" a little weird and linguistically mish-mash-y but "can get used to it". I've switched from using Dixingian in fic to using Dixingren because my beta had a preference. *g*

I personally don't feel strongly about what other people use at all. The only thing I feel strongly about on this one is people being snooty about it in either direction; then I immediately want to change my own usage to whatever is the opposite of what the snooty person is being snooty about. :-)

(I liked what you were doing with 'Dixing people' in the subs but I can also see that it's a pain in the ass sometimes!)