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sid_guardian2021-02-13 07:09 pm
maggie33) wrote in sid_guardian2021-02-13 07:09 pm
Entry tags:
Focus on: Ye Zun pretends to be Shen Wei, from episode 34
Location of scene: episode 34, 19:35 to 26:24
This is quite a long scene, so the long description is behind the cut. :)
Earlier in the episode Wang Zheng and Sang Zan overpowered and tied up two men send by Minster Gao to close down the SID.
In the beginning of this scene first we see Wang Zheng’s face. She smiles and says “Professor Shen. You’re back!” And we see Ye Zun slowly walking up to them. When they look at Ye Zun Wang Zheng and Sang Zan’s smiles fade. It looks to me a bit as if they right away sense that something is not quite right. Ye Zun praises them for capturing people from Haixing Inspectorate. Wang Zheng frowns seeing the completely un-Shen Wei smile on “Shen Wei’s” face.
Ye Zun uses his powers to kill these two man. And then he asks: “Is my little Yunlan in?”
Wang Zheng nods and Ye Zun leaves them there. Wang Zheng asks, frowning: “Why does professor Shen seem off?”
It’s obvious that they know something is wrong, but they can’t figure out what. Not like it would cross they minds at that moment that this is not Shen Wei, since he’s here in the building, and they think that there is a shield preventing someone who’s not the member of the SID or Shen Wei to enter.
Zhao Yunlan is in the lab where he looks at the Longevity Dial and then decides to try to use it. Of course as soon as he picks it up he has his usual adverse reaction to it.
At the same time Sang Zan checks the pulse of Haixing Inspectorate’s people and he and Wang Zheng realize that these two men are dead.
Ye Zun comes into the lab. Zhao Yunlan is still holding the Longevity Dial and it affects him so much that he sinks to his knees on the floor, shaking. You can see how Ye Zun changes his whole demeanor to what he thinks Shen Wei looks and behaves like.
Ye Zun calls out “Yunlan”, and comes closer. Zhao Yunlan manages to get up from his knees with some effort and he puts the Longevity Dial in its place. He breathes deeply and then he laughs. And here is when I always want to yell at Zhao Yunlan: “Shen Wei saw you fondling the Hallow and didn’t instantly berate you or manhandled you sexily. It’s obvious this is not Shen Wei!” :D
Zhan Yunlan is surprised to see Shen Wei at the SID. He asks: “Why did you come running here and stay at home to rest?” Then he complements Ye Zun’s outfit.
Ye Zun says: “I wasn’t sure if it suits me, so I wore it over for you to take a look.”
Seriously, Ye Zun, that’s what you think your brother’s relationship with his boyfriend is? ;)
Ye Zun asks then: “So, you’re studying the Holly Tools?”
Zhao Yunlan: “I just figured out how to use them. I remember you telling me that the resonance from the Holly Tools does not only predicts the future, it can also disrupt the flow of time. So if we manage to travel to a point when Ye Zun hasn’t broken free yet, and even before Wang Xiangyang’s wife died, then the situation we have now can be nipped in the bud.”
Ye Zun: “But the time corrects itself. Even if you change one factor, other factors will steer towards today’s outcome. Moreover, there’s no record of anyone coming back whole after entering a wormhole.”
Zhao Yunlan: “But we’ve still got to try, right?”
Zhao Yunlan sits down and Ye Zun comes closer to the Longevity Dial staring at it with desire in his eyes.
“You’re the Guardian of humankind, yet they call for you to be beaten, even killed. Is it worth it, you doing this?”
That look of realization on Zhao Yunlan’s face – in that moment he knows this is not Shen Wei.
Ye Zun looks very frustrated that he can’t just take the Hallows himself, but he forces a smile and then he turns to Zhao Yunlan and says: “Why don’t I do it for you? I’m from Dixing, I have plenty of experience controlling dark energy. You can hand these Holly Tools over to me.”
I would say that he doesn’t even try very hard to pretend to be Shen Wei here. He’s just so impatient to have the Hallows in his grasp.
Zhan Yunlan laughs. He says: “When you put it like that it makes a lot of sense.”
Ye Zun smiles with such a pleased smiles, thinking he’s won.
Zhao Yunlan says in a light tone: “Ok, I’ll hand these Holly Tools… “ And then he presses his gun into Ye Zun’s side.
He says: “You are not Shen Wei. The things you say would never cross his lips. “Is it worth it?” We don’t deal with matters based on what’s in it for us. You must be Ye Zun. Your cover’s blown.”
Ye Zun smiles. Zhao Yunlan asks him how did he break through the SID’s shield? Ye Zun says, that whoever started the trouble should end it, and he admits that he used the Master od Nightmares one more time. Zhao Yunlan instantly knows who Ye Zun is talking about. He asks: “What did you do to Lin Jing?”
Ye Zun does this with his tongue:
He says: “Just made him dream.”
Zhao Yunlan shoots the gun, but Ye Zun is quicker. Zhao Yunlan tries again with the same result.
Ye Zun tries to use his power on Zhao Yunlan, but at that moment Wang Zheng and Sang Zan run into the room and throw themselves in front of their Chief. Sang Zan says: “Thank you for letting us live again for so long. We’ll see this through.”
Ye Zun is indeed very annoyed at being interrupted and he uses his power to devour Wang Zheng and Sang Zan while Zhao Yunlan looks helplessly unable to do anything. Ye Zun focuses all his power again on Zhao Yunlan. Zhao Yunlan tries to resist and with a lot of effort he raises his gun again.
Then the Hallows start to glow and hum and the wormhole opens in the air.
Shan Wei runs into the room and severs the dark energy connection between Ye Zun and Zhao Yunlan, but it’s too late. Zhao Yunlan got sucked into the wormhole.
Ye Zun disappears, laughing. We hear his voice saying to Shen Wei: “You and I must have an ending. The show has only just started.”
Questions:
1. What did Zhao Yunlan think about Ye Zun looking exactly like Shen Wei? I don’t think his mind jumped to “twins”, so maybe he thought that Ye Zun had power to make himself look like somebody else?
2. What do Wang Zheng and Sang Zan think when they realize that the two men send by Haixing Inspectorate are dead? Do they think that this was not Shen Wei? Or do they think that this is Shen Wei but something is very wrong with him?
3. What Zhao Yunlan plan was when he took the Longevity Dial in the beginning of this scene? Did he expect the Hallows to do something particular at that moment?
4. What do you think about Ye Zun’s words on how time travel works in this universe – that you can’t change anything because the timeline will correct himself anyway.
5. And please talk to me about how Ye Zun imagines Shen Wei talks and behaves like, because Ye Zun’s choices here amuse me so much. :)
So come and discuss it with me. :) Links to meta, picspams, and related fanworks, new or old, are very much appreciated. Basically, this is the place for anything you want to say or link to about this scene.
This is quite a long scene, so the long description is behind the cut. :)
Earlier in the episode Wang Zheng and Sang Zan overpowered and tied up two men send by Minster Gao to close down the SID.
In the beginning of this scene first we see Wang Zheng’s face. She smiles and says “Professor Shen. You’re back!” And we see Ye Zun slowly walking up to them. When they look at Ye Zun Wang Zheng and Sang Zan’s smiles fade. It looks to me a bit as if they right away sense that something is not quite right. Ye Zun praises them for capturing people from Haixing Inspectorate. Wang Zheng frowns seeing the completely un-Shen Wei smile on “Shen Wei’s” face.
Ye Zun uses his powers to kill these two man. And then he asks: “Is my little Yunlan in?”
Wang Zheng nods and Ye Zun leaves them there. Wang Zheng asks, frowning: “Why does professor Shen seem off?”
It’s obvious that they know something is wrong, but they can’t figure out what. Not like it would cross they minds at that moment that this is not Shen Wei, since he’s here in the building, and they think that there is a shield preventing someone who’s not the member of the SID or Shen Wei to enter.
Zhao Yunlan is in the lab where he looks at the Longevity Dial and then decides to try to use it. Of course as soon as he picks it up he has his usual adverse reaction to it.
At the same time Sang Zan checks the pulse of Haixing Inspectorate’s people and he and Wang Zheng realize that these two men are dead.
Ye Zun comes into the lab. Zhao Yunlan is still holding the Longevity Dial and it affects him so much that he sinks to his knees on the floor, shaking. You can see how Ye Zun changes his whole demeanor to what he thinks Shen Wei looks and behaves like.
Ye Zun calls out “Yunlan”, and comes closer. Zhao Yunlan manages to get up from his knees with some effort and he puts the Longevity Dial in its place. He breathes deeply and then he laughs. And here is when I always want to yell at Zhao Yunlan: “Shen Wei saw you fondling the Hallow and didn’t instantly berate you or manhandled you sexily. It’s obvious this is not Shen Wei!” :D
Zhan Yunlan is surprised to see Shen Wei at the SID. He asks: “Why did you come running here and stay at home to rest?” Then he complements Ye Zun’s outfit.
Ye Zun says: “I wasn’t sure if it suits me, so I wore it over for you to take a look.”
Seriously, Ye Zun, that’s what you think your brother’s relationship with his boyfriend is? ;)
Ye Zun asks then: “So, you’re studying the Holly Tools?”
Zhao Yunlan: “I just figured out how to use them. I remember you telling me that the resonance from the Holly Tools does not only predicts the future, it can also disrupt the flow of time. So if we manage to travel to a point when Ye Zun hasn’t broken free yet, and even before Wang Xiangyang’s wife died, then the situation we have now can be nipped in the bud.”
Ye Zun: “But the time corrects itself. Even if you change one factor, other factors will steer towards today’s outcome. Moreover, there’s no record of anyone coming back whole after entering a wormhole.”
Zhao Yunlan: “But we’ve still got to try, right?”
Zhao Yunlan sits down and Ye Zun comes closer to the Longevity Dial staring at it with desire in his eyes.
“You’re the Guardian of humankind, yet they call for you to be beaten, even killed. Is it worth it, you doing this?”
That look of realization on Zhao Yunlan’s face – in that moment he knows this is not Shen Wei.
Ye Zun looks very frustrated that he can’t just take the Hallows himself, but he forces a smile and then he turns to Zhao Yunlan and says: “Why don’t I do it for you? I’m from Dixing, I have plenty of experience controlling dark energy. You can hand these Holly Tools over to me.”
I would say that he doesn’t even try very hard to pretend to be Shen Wei here. He’s just so impatient to have the Hallows in his grasp.
Zhan Yunlan laughs. He says: “When you put it like that it makes a lot of sense.”
Ye Zun smiles with such a pleased smiles, thinking he’s won.
Zhao Yunlan says in a light tone: “Ok, I’ll hand these Holly Tools… “ And then he presses his gun into Ye Zun’s side.
He says: “You are not Shen Wei. The things you say would never cross his lips. “Is it worth it?” We don’t deal with matters based on what’s in it for us. You must be Ye Zun. Your cover’s blown.”
Ye Zun smiles. Zhao Yunlan asks him how did he break through the SID’s shield? Ye Zun says, that whoever started the trouble should end it, and he admits that he used the Master od Nightmares one more time. Zhao Yunlan instantly knows who Ye Zun is talking about. He asks: “What did you do to Lin Jing?”
Ye Zun does this with his tongue:
He says: “Just made him dream.”
Zhao Yunlan shoots the gun, but Ye Zun is quicker. Zhao Yunlan tries again with the same result.
Ye Zun tries to use his power on Zhao Yunlan, but at that moment Wang Zheng and Sang Zan run into the room and throw themselves in front of their Chief. Sang Zan says: “Thank you for letting us live again for so long. We’ll see this through.”
Ye Zun is indeed very annoyed at being interrupted and he uses his power to devour Wang Zheng and Sang Zan while Zhao Yunlan looks helplessly unable to do anything. Ye Zun focuses all his power again on Zhao Yunlan. Zhao Yunlan tries to resist and with a lot of effort he raises his gun again.
Then the Hallows start to glow and hum and the wormhole opens in the air.
Shan Wei runs into the room and severs the dark energy connection between Ye Zun and Zhao Yunlan, but it’s too late. Zhao Yunlan got sucked into the wormhole.
Ye Zun disappears, laughing. We hear his voice saying to Shen Wei: “You and I must have an ending. The show has only just started.”
Questions:
1. What did Zhao Yunlan think about Ye Zun looking exactly like Shen Wei? I don’t think his mind jumped to “twins”, so maybe he thought that Ye Zun had power to make himself look like somebody else?
2. What do Wang Zheng and Sang Zan think when they realize that the two men send by Haixing Inspectorate are dead? Do they think that this was not Shen Wei? Or do they think that this is Shen Wei but something is very wrong with him?
3. What Zhao Yunlan plan was when he took the Longevity Dial in the beginning of this scene? Did he expect the Hallows to do something particular at that moment?
4. What do you think about Ye Zun’s words on how time travel works in this universe – that you can’t change anything because the timeline will correct himself anyway.
5. And please talk to me about how Ye Zun imagines Shen Wei talks and behaves like, because Ye Zun’s choices here amuse me so much. :)
So come and discuss it with me. :) Links to meta, picspams, and related fanworks, new or old, are very much appreciated. Basically, this is the place for anything you want to say or link to about this scene.
no subject
1. What did Zhao Yunlan think about Ye Zun looking exactly like Shen Wei? I don’t think his mind jumped to “twins”, so maybe he thought that Ye Zun had power to make himself look like somebody else?
Yeah, that's my reading as well. I think Zhao Yunlan assumed that Ye Zun has a shapeshifting power. It's an understandable assumption, too. Lying, albeit by omission, about having a twin hell-bent on world domination is a bit much even for Shen Wei's dubious relationship with the truth (although, when considered from Shen Wei's perspective, also understandable).
2. What do Wang Zheng and Sang Zan think when they realize that the two men send by Haixing Inspectorate are dead? Do they think that this was not Shen Wei? Or do they think that this is Shen Wei but something is very wrong with him?
This is such a good question. I'd say they figure it out. They realise it's not Shen Wei, and that's why they intervene when Zhao Yunlan is in danger. And that's why they get eaten. ;_;
3. What Zhao Yunlan plan was when he took the Longevity Dial in the beginning of this scene? Did he expect the Hallows to do something particular at that moment?
Hmmm, I don't think he has a plan, but maybe a hunch. He's thinking of time-travel as a solution to their problems, and that's both foreshadowing and a sign of desperation.
4. What do you think about Ye Zun’s words on how time travel works in this universe – that you can’t change anything because the timeline will correct himself anyway.
I haven't thought much of this until you've pointed it out, but it's such an interesting line. Maybe Ye Zun did try to time travel and change things that way, and that's why he has such specific opinions on time-travel. (I don't really think this is the case, but it's fun to imagine.)
5. And please talk to me about how Ye Zun imagines Shen Wei talks and behaves like, because Ye Zun’s choices here amuse me so much. :)
LOL. They're amazing. "Little Yunlan." "Yunlan."* "I wasn’t sure if it suits me, so I wore it over for you to take a look." Ye Zun, please, what do you think Shen Wei is like with Zhao Yunlan?! Although Ye Zun probably had a lot of downtime being stuck in the pillar. Definitely enough time to imagine some OOC fic about his brother and his brother's boyfriend.
[*This is both funny and devastating, since IIRC Shen Wei only ever calls Zhao Yunlan that as he's bleeding on the ground in Dixing. ;_;]
no subject
Yes, Zhao Yunlan knows that Shen Wei is prone to hiding things, but I can't imagine he would think “surely Shen Wei didn’t tell me about his evil twin”. :) Although it does make me wonder when did Zhao Yunlan realize that Ye Zun isn’t a shapeshifter. Because what, Ye Zun just continues to look like Shen Wei for some reason? :) I wish we had a scene in the drama explaining what Zhao Yunlan thinks about that.
I'd say they figure it out. They realise it's not Shen Wei, and that's why they intervene when Zhao Yunlan is in danger.
If I had to choose one option I would say the same – that they do realize that this is not Shen Wei and that Zhao Yunlan could be in danger.
Maybe Ye Zun did try to time travel and change things that way, and that's why he has such specific opinions on time-travel. (I don't really think this is the case, but it's fun to imagine.)
Ohh, I like that idea. I don’t think it happened, too, but IMO it’s a great prompt for fanfic – that Ye Zun tried and failed, and that’s how he knows. :)
Although Ye Zun probably had a lot of downtime being stuck in the pillar. Definitely enough time to imagine some OOC fic about his brother and his brother's boyfriend.
LOL And now I want that fic, too. :D
no subject
He finds out that they're fighting Shen Wei's brother when he's in the past, during the confrontation with the rebels led by Ye Zun, and I'm pretty sure he makes the connection with Ye Zun in the present. But they never talk about it, and you're so right, there definitely should have been a scene in the drama about that.
LOL And now I want that fic, too. :D
It'd be hilarious. His version of Weilan would be so obnoxious haha. Shen Wei would always be absurdly debonair and seductive in it though.
no subject
1. What did Zhao Yunlan think about Ye Zun looking exactly like Shen Wei? I don’t think his mind jumped to “twins”, so maybe he thought that Ye Zun had power to make himself look like somebody else?
I’m in agreement with you there… I think Zhao Yunlan’s assumption went more to illusion/shapeshifting in order to impersonate Shen Wei’s appearance as part of an infiltration rather than jumping to the conclusion of identical twins.
2. What do Wang Zheng and Sang Zan think when they realize that the two men send by Haixing Inspectorate are dead? Do they think that this was not Shen Wei? Or do they think that this is Shen Wei but something is very wrong with him?
Hm, interesting, I think it could go either way, but I’d lean more towards them concluding it was an imposter, rather than Shen Wei himself. Everyone in the SID is really used to Shen Wei/The Black Cloaked Envoy being righteous/just in his actions and powerful to the point of near-omnipotence (even if they’d be a bit wrong on the degree of power-scale at this point…). Even after they became more familiar with Professor Shen, SID consultant, I think they’d find it more likely that an enemy would take on his appearance and find a way past the shield than that he would either freely choose to murder unconscious prisoners or that someone could entirely co-opt/control him and force him to do it against his will. Either way though, even if they weren’t sure at that point, I don’t know that it would change their actions/decisions. Whether it’s Shen Wei voluntarily turning evil, Shen Wei being controlled, or an imposter taking on his appearance, he would need to be stopped, so they would still rush in to do so, and would still throw themselves into the line of fire to try to save Zhao Yunlan when they saw he was being killed.
3. What Zhao Yunlan plan was when he took the Longevity Dial in the beginning of this scene? Did he expect the Hallows to do something particular at that moment?
I don’t think he had anything super-specific in mind for what he wanted it to do… he had some vague ideas about time travel being possible, but I don’t think he was actively aiming for a trip through a wormhole there in that moment. I think he more just wanted something to change, he wanted to trigger some kind of insight or vision that would tip the scale and give him something more solid than vague theories to work towards as an active goal.
4. What do you think about Ye Zun’s words on how time travel works in this universe – that you can’t change anything because the timeline will correct himself anyway.
Ah, I was recently thinking about this as well! The time travel aspects of this show are so fascinating! Ye Zun’s position here is in line with the Novikov self-consistency principle. Key bits from the linked wiki article being: “The principle asserts that if an event exists that would cause a paradox or any "change" to the past whatsoever, then the probability of that event is zero. It would thus be impossible to create time paradoxes.” “…offering the opinion that only self-consistent trips back in time would be permitted.” And the big example we have from the show, Zhao Yunlan’s jaunt to the past, seems to have been entirely self-consistent from everything we saw, so this is definitely in line with that in that respect.
But, we’re also given indications that might not always be the case. The discussions and outcomes we saw in episodes 19 and 20, with Zhao Yunlan having visions of possible future outcomes, some of which caused them to change their decisions/behaviors, which led to those potential futures no longer coming to pass is more in line with the Many Worlds interpretation. “MWI views time as a many-branched tree, wherein every possible quantum outcome is realised…every possible outcome of a quantum event exists in its own universe.” Shen Wei tells the story of a Haixing man from their records who was exposed to dark energy and began to see visions of both the past and the future that were 'out of the timeline'. And then, he notably says to Zhao Yunlan in episode 20, “We changed the future by accident this time. What about next time?” To me, that falls pretty firmly in establishing that alternate timelines are possible, that decisions can be made at any point that result in divergences/forked pathways, rather than there being one, set timeline that self-corrects back to a default regardless of attempts to make changes.
And I have to wonder whether Zhao Yunlan’s jaunt to the past was self-consistent because they’re trying to portray that as an immutable law of physics in this ‘verse, or whether it was a result of multiple key individuals making choices (that could have gone other ways, and may very well have gone differently in other versions of the timeline) which actively sought to keep this time-travel self-consistent. Shen Wei worked very hard to make sure Zhao Yunlan didn’t learn anything that might have nudged things out of place and resulted in different outcomes, and Ma Gui and Fu You also actively worked to keep things on the track they wanted to maintain… definitely open to interpretation, but to me, all of this active effort on the part of the people involved to keep things from changing, strongly implies that change is actually possible. Whether that’s what the show was ultimately going for or not, I’m still not 100% sure!
5. And please talk to me about how Ye Zun imagines Shen Wei talks and behaves like, because Ye Zun’s choices here amuse me so much.
Yes, Ye Zun’s choices in how he impersonates Shen Wei when interacting with Zhao Yunlan (and Wang Zheng and Sang Zan) are pretty hilarious! Like, he rolls really smoothly into improv when Zhao Yunlan makes an observation that his outfit is a bit uncharacteristic: ‘oh, yes, ahem, this is a bit different from what I usually wear, you say?... uh, well, I wanted to try something new and model it for you, of course!’ ...That’s certainly one way of explaining away an out-of-character wardrobe change! 🤣
Another aspect of this scene that makes me ponder a bit was what Ye Zun's motivation was for going out of his way to murder those two Inspectorate people. It doesn’t seem to serve any immediate practical purpose that I could ever figure out, so I’ve ended up concluding it’s just a relatively random cruel act consistent with his general malicious takes-pleasure-in-harming-others/enjoys-the-power-rush of-controlling-life-and-death that we see throughout the show. Options I considered: 1) He just enjoys ending lives in general and seized an opportunity to do it right under his enemy’s nose there for the pleasure of it (based on his light-hearted demeanor/lil’ happy smile-eyebrow-raise in the shot, this is the one I lean towards as most likely), 2) He saw a vulnerability/opportunity and was seeking to end some Haixing lives more specifically there that just happened to fall into his hands (his main goal is the death of all Haixing and Yashou people, so that tracks in a… very small-scale practical aspect in that respect, I guess… gets him 2 deaths closer to his desired end-state), 3) He can consume energy/spirit in a way that kills—and does so here—but in a way that doesn’t absorb the physical body, and he did get a bit of an energy boost/nourishment by killing those dudes.
I don’t see #3 as likely for a few reasons: The scene shows dark energy coming from Ye Zun but nothing flowing back into him from them, there’s no precedent before or after where we see Ye Zun explicitly doing his consuming-people thing without also consuming people physically as far as I recall, and his expression is totally different from what we see when he eats people to up his powers. Compared to how pleased/satisfied/satiated he looks in the wake of eating Lin Jing, his little smile of simple pleasure at killing a couple of dudes looks pretty different…
It just doesn’t have the same look/resonance of a craving being sated with what he did to the unconscious Inspectorate guys that was present when he ate Lin Jing.
…and oh, with this scene, don’t even get me started on how much I enjoy how very hard this show goes in bringing home the moral contrast parallels. One of them makes that lean-over shoulder-grab gesture in-front-of-others-but-still-stealthily/deceptively in order to use his powers to murder/take/dominate. The other makes the same gesture in-front-of-others-but-still-stealthily/deceptively in order to save/give/heal. Eugh, this show.
Also, all of the yes! to the moment you highlighted when Zhao Yunlan realizes this is an imposter...
Shen Wei Look-alike: "Ah, but the public is not giving you the recognition you deserve, they are resisting you, have been turned against you, you are suffering for your efforts to help others...is striving to help/defend people really worth this?"
Zhao Yunlan: {{{IMMEDIATE EYE ZOOM}}} Who the hell is this???
(I LOVE THEM AND THEIR PERFECT UNDERSTANDING OF EACH OTHER AT THIS LEVEL SO MUCH! Such big damn soulmate energy.)
no subject
Either way though, even if they weren’t sure at that point, I don’t know that it would change their actions/decisions. Whether it’s Shen Wei voluntarily turning evil, Shen Wei being controlled, or an imposter taking on his appearance, he would need to be stopped, so they would still rush in to do so, and would still throw themselves into the line of fire to try to save Zhao Yunlan when they saw he was being killed.
That’s a good point and I agree. At that moment it didn’t matter if it was the impostor od real Shen Wei suddenly going evil. They would still do the same thing.
The time travel aspects of this show are so fascinating!
They sure are for me. I love time travel and I love what Guardian chose to do wit it. 😊
And then, he notably says to Zhao Yunlan in episode 20, “We changed the future by accident this time. What about next time?” To me, that falls pretty firmly in establishing that alternate timelines are possible, that decisions can be made at any point that result in divergences/forked pathways, rather than there being one, set timeline that self-corrects back to a default regardless of attempts to make changes.
Ohhh, I forgot about Shen Wei saying that about changing the future. But you’re right, I think that the alternate timelines are probably possible. And I absolutely agree with what you said about Zhao Yunlan’s travel to the past, that it was “a result of multiple key individuals making choices (that could have gone other ways, and may very well have gone differently in other versions of the timeline) which actively sought to keep this time-travel self-consistent.”
Also Ye Zun says in the scene I’m describing that: “But the time corrects itself. Even if you change one factor, other factors will steer towards today’s outcome.” And wouldn’t that mean that changing thing in the past is actually possible? Because Ye Zun suggests that even if Zhao Yunlan did manage to change one thing in the past, let’s say save Wang Xiangyang’s wife, Ye Zun would still find some other poor devastated person eager for revenge, for instance, and convince them to play the same part Wang Xiangyang played before. So for the SID the outcome wouldn’t change but for Wang Xiangyang and his wife it certainly would.
And that just brings more questions. 😊 But who knows, maybe some big events are fixed points in time and you can’t change them, and some smaller ones you can?
no subject
That would be tricky, though, since Wang Xiangyang is the master of the Merit Brush. They'd have to find some other way to get their hands on the Hallow.
*pets Bai Suxia*
no subject
Oh, you're right. So even if Zhao Yunlan could save Bai Suxia, maybe Ye Zun would kill her later anyway and lie to Wang Xiangyang about it, to give Wang Xiangyang motivation to join him against the SID. Or maybe Ye Zun would just steal the Merit Brush.
I love time travel. :) And it's such fun to speculate what could have happened in different ways if changing the past was possible.
no subject
Yes! So many possibilities! :-D
no subject
Another aspect of this scene that makes me ponder a bit was what Ye Zun's motivation was for going out of his way to murder those two Inspectorate people. It doesn’t seem to serve any immediate practical purpose that I could ever figure out, so I’ve ended up concluding it’s just a relatively random cruel act consistent with his general malicious takes-pleasure-in-harming-others/enjoys-the-power-rush of-controlling-life-and-death that we see throughout the show.
I think that either he did it “for the pleasure of it” as you said, or maybe just in case, so there were two people less, who could eventually interrupt him. Or for both those reasons at the same time. 😊
and oh, with this scene, don’t even get me started on how much I enjoy how very hard this show goes in bringing home the moral contrast parallels. One of them makes that lean-over shoulder-grab gesture in-front-of-others-but-still-stealthily/deceptively in order to use his powers to murder/take/dominate. The other makes the same gesture in-front-of-others-but-still-stealthily/deceptively in order to save/give/heal.
I never thought about that, so thanks for pointing it out. I love it and seeing those two gifs side by side... It’s so great.
no subject
I haven't fully looked at all the riches in this thread yet, I just wanted to say those comparative gifs are so cool! *chinhands*
no subject
It could be like his consuming the underground fight club fighters, maybe? In that case, Zhu Jiu was collecting their energy, not eating them whole. But still, I'd expect him to react a bit more if he was eating them, even that way.
Oh, awesome observation! Yes!
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1. What did Zhao Yunlan think about Ye Zun looking exactly like Shen Wei? I don’t think his mind jumped to “twins”, so maybe he thought that Ye Zun had power to make himself look like somebody else?
Yeah, I think he thinks Ye Zun can disguise himself and is being disrespectful when he takes on Shen Wei's look. (Like in the park, before Zhao Yunlan was blinded, when Zhao Yunlan was offended by the resemblance.)
The Sundial case reacts to Ye Zun, so I'm guessing it's on a separate security system from the SID HQ as a whole. Surely that system would allow Shen Wei to take the Hallows, if required, wouldn't it?
2. What do Wang Zheng and Sang Zan think when they realize that the two men send by Haixing Inspectorate are dead? Do they think that this was not Shen Wei? Or do they think that this is Shen Wei but something is very wrong with him?
I don't think they think it's Shen Wei. Even his first words, telling them they're brave for tying up the DOS people, are OOC. But as
3. What Zhao Yunlan plan was when he took the Longevity Dial in the beginning of this scene? Did he expect the Hallows to do something particular at that moment?
Things are desperate. They're openly defying the DOS. I think he's hoping for information -- perhaps an indication of where the Guardian Lantern is. Or just grasping at dangerous, black-energy-corrupting straws.
4. What do you think about Ye Zun’s words on how time travel works in this universe – that you can’t change anything because the timeline will correct himself anyway.
I posted about this briefly a while ago -- how the contrast between Shen Wei's and Ye Zun's views of time travel (if we take Ye Zun at his word here) reflect their psychologies and world views. But actually, I agree with
5. And please talk to me about how Ye Zun imagines Shen Wei talks and behaves like, because Ye Zun’s choices here amuse me so much. :)
LOL! Ye Zun's view of Shen Wei is bizarre -- approval-seeking, responsibility-avoiding, calling ZYL "xiao-Yunlan" to the other SID members. So much projecting going on, he's practically a multiplex.
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I absolutely think that viewers are supposed to read this scene as Zhao Yunlan not realizing this is not Shen Wei and only realizing that after “Is it worth it?”. I always joke (and in this post, too) that he should have known because Shen Wei didn’t yell at him for touching the Hallows. But IMO it’s clear that Zhao Yunlan never has any suspicions at first.
I posted about this briefly a while ago -- how the contrast between Shen Wei's and Ye Zun's views of time travel (if we take Ye Zun at his word here) reflect their psychologies and world views. But actually, I agree with winter_blossom on the comments to that post that Ye Zun might well believe the opposite of what he's saying and be trying to dissuade Zhao Yunlan from a course that could unravel all of Ye Zun's progress so far.
I always thought that Ye Zun was telling the truth in this scene, or at least that he believed what he was telling was the truth. But I’m inclined to think that Ye Zun was telling the truth and that’s how time travel works in the drama. IMO that reading is supported by Zhao Yunlan’s time travel to YOHE. Him being there there didn’t change anything in the present time. On the contrary it was necessary for him to be there, so everything in the present time went exactly as we witnessed.
And now I want a fic about Zhao Yunlan not going to the past (maybe Shen Wei appeared a bit earlier and stopped him), and how that would change things. But it would probably make things so much worse, wouldn’t it? It would be a very angsty fic. :)
But I also love that from your earlier post:
Maybe Ye Zun, otoh, can't stand the idea of "perhaps it could have gone differently", because then it hurts even more that it turned out how it did, feels even more bitter and arbitrarily cruel? So he tends to believe in determinism as a defence mechanism?
Aww, poor Ye Zun... I like that, because yes, it’s very IC for him to think like that.
Ye Zun's view of Shen Wei is bizarre -- approval-seeking, responsibility-avoiding, calling ZYL "xiao-Yunlan" to the other SID members. So much projecting going on, he's practically a multiplex.
LOL Yes, that is true. :D
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I think you're right, but I also think there's something off about their exchange, and imo it's not just on Ye Zun's part. *rewatches* The last time we saw Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei together, they were hanging out on the bench, really in tune, right? Whereas this conversation feels very testing-y to me, like something from earlier in their relationship. No casual touches or flirting. No asking Shen Wei how he's feeling after his Dixing ordeal. So atm, I'm leaning towards Zhao Yunlan thinking Shen Wei is acting strangely -- after all, if Wang Zheng notices, Zhao Yunlan certainly would, right? And given the state he left Shen Wei in, the idea of his coming to the SID to show off new clothes is laughable, especially in the middle of a crisis. But yeah, it's not until "Is it worth it?" that he figures out it's not just Shen Wei being off-kilter for some reason. (I may change my mind about this again tomorrow. ;-p)
But I’m inclined to think that Ye Zun was telling the truth and that’s how time travel works in the drama.
Oh, but doesn't that make Shen Wei's secrets unnecessary? And Ma Gui's telling Zhao Yunlan to keep his identity secret? I guess I want to believe people can change things more than that, and not everything is fixed. I find it more satisfying, somehow (and it allows more space for fixits ;-).
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Oh, yes, I agree. Zhao Yunlan does think that Shen Wei is being weird, but at that point he still thinks this is Shen Wei, and not an impostor.
Oh, but doesn't that make Shen Wei's secrets unnecessary? And Ma Gui's telling Zhao Yunlan to keep his identity secret? I guess I want to believe people can change things more than that, and not everything is fixed. I find it more satisfying, somehow (and it allows more space for fixits ;-).
Heh, I like both kinds of time travel – the one when you can’t change things and the outcome is the same no matter how much you tried to change it, and the one when you absolutely can change things in present time by changing something in the past. I just really love time travel, ok? :D
As for Shen Wei keeping secrets – I think he just wasn’t really sure what was the correct thing to do here. And at first he probably also wasn’t sure what was really happening. I don’t think he instantly guessed “oh, Zhao Yunlan I’ve met in present time would travel back in time”. I also really like to ponder what would happen if Shen Wei did tell Zhao Yunlan the truth earlier. Would Zhao Yunlan knowing the truth change things? Would they actively try to find the way for Zhao Yunlan to travel back in time or would they just wait for the progress of events? Or would they try to prevent it? What would happen if Zhao Yunlan didn’t travel back in time? I would love to read a fic like that, too. :)
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Hee! Ok! *hearts* I like both kinds too, in general. Here, in canon, I think if it were meant to be unchangeable, we'd have seen someone trying to change it and failing, because that's how stories usually tell you that fate is inevitable, you know? Instead we see people going out of their way to keep things the same. But you could definitely make an argument for the Hallows orchestrating things to their liking...
Ah, we differ on that point. I think Shen Wei had a pretty good idea that there was time travel involved as soon as he arrived in present day, figured out pretty quickly that the time loop had yet to close, and was keeping his secrets quite deliberately. Aside from anything else, he already knew first-hand about the Hallows and wormholes and Dixing powers, so he wouldn't think time travel was as far-fetched an explanation as we would, and there's plenty of clues for him to have picked up on.
But yes, there are lots of delicious ways you could diverge from canon in fic, tons of fascinating what-ifs. :-)
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One thing I love about this scene is the drop in Zhao Yunlan's expression at this point. Before this, he's still sort of smiling and taunting Ye Zun about blowing his cover. Acting like this is a casual conversation and making light of things. But the moment Ye Zun mentions 'who started the trouble should end it', you can see the transition from confusion, to realization, to fear, to barely suppressed fury. Zhao Yunlan has seen first what the Master of Nightmares does. He practically growls out the question, hatred in every note. It's a moment when you really see the 'flirty, teasing' mask come off fully. He drops it the moment he realizes Ye Zun may have hurt one of his team.
Even better, the thing that finally makes Zhao Yunlan shoot is when Ye Zun taunts him by confirming he's trapped Lin Jing in a dream*. That's the thing that pushes him over the edge. Because unlike Zhu Hong, Lin Jing has no one who can help him. He's trapped.
And he's only in that situation because Zhao Yunlan put him there.
*He wasn't actually trapped, but Zhao Yunlan doesn't know that
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