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sid_guardian2020-08-08 09:35 pm
trobadora) wrote in sid_guardian2020-08-08 09:35 pm
Entry tags:
Focus on Ying Chun: we can't interfere
Ying Chun: her name means "welcome spring", and is the Chinese name for Winter Jasmine.
(I originally thought she was a forsythia until I looked up her name! But Google tells me I'm not the only one to confuse these two early-spring bright yellow bushes.)
In the drama, she's the intensely non-interventionist leader of the Flower Tribe, and Ya Qing's childhood friend. She can appear as a flowering bush, as a tree woman, or in human form (with yellow blossoms in her hair), and she can fly through the air in the form of sparkling blossoms.
She wears bright colours, and seems very bouncy and perky, but - and I didn't notice this until I made screencaps for this post - we hardly ever see her happy and smiling. (With the notable exception of that time Zhao Yunlan was being silly and charming at her in episode 21. *g*)
I know nothing about her novel counterpart beyond whatextrapenguin's dramatis personae says - she's apparently a "junior flower fairy who looks about 15 in human form". So all of the rest of this will apply to the drama only. But I'd love to hear more about her role in the novel, and whether there's more there that the drama drew from.
Ying Chun first appears in episode 6, in bush and tree-woman form, but isn't seen in human form until episode 13, where she is also first named. I remember there was some discussion once about whether this is in fact the same person - here's why I assume it is:
When Shen Wei first approaches Ying Chun, she's been at the university long enough to recognise him as a professor. She's been spending her time there as a bush, for reasons only known to her. Shen Wei asks her to help, and she is very willing to, but also firm on her boundaries:
Ying Chun: "Black-Cloaked Highness, please forgive me. Can the Flower Tribe assist with anything, sir? I must point out, if it's related to fighting, we can't help." (episode 6)
This sets up her central conflict and the focus of her character arc right at the start: fight, or not? Interfere, or not?
Shen Wei asks her help in finding someone, and in episode 8 he says she did help him. Did he ask her to look for mirror!Zhou Weiwei? That would make sense: he'd just at the end of the last case (in episode 5) discovered that a member of his former team who was searching for the Hallows, then went AWOL and died, had left a child behind.
In episode 8, Shen Wei talks to Ying Chun a little about his troubles, but she doesn't respond, apparently not willing to be drawn too deeply into his issues. But when he ends up in a fight with Zhu Jiu right in front of her, she interferes nonetheless, restraining Zhu Jiu. She's clearly uncomfortable with it, though, and tries to remove herself from the situation by leaving the university:
Ying Chun: At first I agreed to help you because of your good intentions. But now, there is constantly trouble here. When the powerful fight, the weak suffer. For millennia, the Flower Tribe kept out of the conflict between your camps. Our clan is weak, but we have our own way of surviving trouble.
Perhaps her worry about her people is why we never see any other Flower Tribe member - she keeps them out of this altogether. Before she goes, Shen Wei asks her one last question:
Shen Wei: What I was looking for last time... you know where it is, right?
It's a thing he says he was looking for here (东西), though it was definitely a person last time (一个人). I assume that's because all of this is connected to his search for the Mountain-River Awl - he was hoping Mirror Girl would have a clue (which she did). But I find it very interesting that this implies Ying Chun knows where one of the Hallows is. How? We don't know. And she's hesitant to tell Shen Wei, though clearly not out of a lack of trust in his motives:
Ying Chun: Knowing its location, what would you do? You really want to try and get it back all by yourself? If you're injured or dead, the people who need your protection will be in danger.
She seems very focused on maintaining the status quo. But I assume she does tell him in the end, since Shen Wei starts planning his trip to the mountains very shortly after this.
The next time we see Ying Chun, she's in human form, and though she attempted to remove herself from the brewing conflict, now she is the one approaching Shen Wei: she's warning him about a Yashou traitor who's working with Shen Wei's enemies. Despite her strict philosophy of non-interference, or perhaps because of it, Ying Chun won't stand by and ignore it when other Yashou break the treaty by interfering. Not even when it's her childhood friend Ya Qing, whom she still cares for:
Ying Chun: "She was not like this before." (episode 13)
Ying Chun also warns Shen Wei again that he's putting himself in danger, but that's hardly a deterrent for him. *g*
And a little later, when Shen Wei is searching for Zhao Yunlan, Ying Chun again approaches Shen Wei, telling him to leave Ya Qing to her. Which leads to a lovely scene of Ying Chun running after Ya Qing, "shouting "Qing-jie!!!!", and stepping into her path. They discuss their fundamental disagreement in a fraught emotional scene:
Ying Chun: "According to the original agreement we can't interfere their internal conflict. Only then they won't bother us in return."
Ya Qing: "Following the old rules there won't be opportunities for Yashou revivification."
Ying Chun wants the Yashou to remain neutral and stay out of whatever conflict is happening; she insists on adherence to (her interpretation of) the treaty, which she believes has kept them safe in the past. Ya Qing has decided neutrality isn't going to serve them any longer. Ying Chun appeals to Ya Qing as her childhood friend, but Ya Qing, despite clearly being affected, tells her it's too late, and leaves. Ying Chun looks after her, her lip wobbling:
Ying Chun: "Why does it have to be like this?"
Ying Chun would have liked to keep out of things, but she's not a very passive person, and now she's determined to stop Ya Qing. In episode 19, when Shen Wei goes to ask Fourth Uncle to keep Qing busy for a few hours while he and ZYL work to trap Zhu Jiu with a blackout, it's Ying Chun who pushes him to agree. (These two Yashou leaders seem to have a long-standing relationship of the friendly bickering type - she calls him "old worm", he calls her "smelly bud". *g*) Unlike Fourth Uncle, Ying Chun has already recognised that now that Ya Qing has involved herself, staying entirely out of it is no longer possible for the Yashou. But her hope is still to change Ya Qing's mind:
Ying Chun: "She's chosen the wrong path. We have to pull her back."
She is looking to stop her from continuing to interfere, so they can return to the status quo.
They keep Ya Qing at Fourth Uncle's house while Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei trap Zhu Jiu, but eventually Ya Qing leaves, set upon her path. Ying Chun stands up as well and takes a few steps after her, but stops, recognising she doesn't know how to get through to her. Perhaps it's dawning on her that Ya Qing really won't be deterred from her path.
And in episode 21, when Ying Chun arrives on the scene to find Ya Qing having killed a Snake Tribe man, threatening Zhu Hong and considering leaving the Yashou alliance, her reaction is strong:
Ying Chun: "Qing-jie, are you crazy?"
After Zhu Hong is freed from Ya Qing's claws, Ying Chun holds on tightly to her afterwards, not letting go for the entire scene. She seems very protective, and I think this is a turning point for her - from thereon, she knows it's too late to try and stop what's happening.
When Ya Qing, her Crows and Ye Zun's Dixingren confront the other Yashou in episode 37, Ying Chun has reached her lowest point. She no longer attempts to get through to Ya Qing. She calls her criminal, and when the Dixingren press Ya Qing to kill the Yashou leaders, she seems genuinely afraid:
Ying Chun: "Qing-jie, do you really have the heart to kill us?"
Ya Qing turns on Ye Zun's lackeys, and Ying Chun bounces in glee, pumping her fist and squealing - only to immediately look afraid again when Ya Qing snaps at them.
She doesn't stop looking nervous until Ya Qing has failed to make the Sacred Wood sprout, and Zhu Hong has succeeded. And when Ya Qing says she's realised working with humans might be better for the Yashou, Ying Chun is very pleased - even though that's far from the non-interference in Dixing-Haixing matters that she used to insist on.
It seems to me that she'd given up hope, found herself standing on what looked to be the losing side of this conflict even without really meaning to be involved, and then regained hope when Ya Qing turned on Ye Zun. And when Ya Qing finally fully changes sides, she knows there's no way around this conflict any more.
From then on, Ying Chun doesn't hesitate. In episode 28, the Yashou leaders and the SID all face Professor Ouyang together. In episode 39, they get ready to fight Ye Zun's Dixingren, and all three Yashou leaders end up fighting side by side with Zhang Shi/Zhao Xinci.
Even though Zhao Xinci gives the Yashou an out, Ying Chun is very pleased when Fourth Uncle rejects it:
Zhao Xinci: "You're all Yashou. You have no obligation to contribute so much in our war against Dixing. Find a chance to retreat!"
Fourth Uncle: "Nonsense. I understand now. Ye Zun clearly wants to kill all living creatures on Haixing. If we don't help you out now, who'll help us in the future?"
Ying Chun: "Old worm, you don't often say something so accurate."
She's come a long way from the woman who said that if it came to fighting, she couldn't help.
Fanfic
Ying Chun is only tagged in six work. The following have her as a main character:
what you see by![[archiveofourown.org profile]](https://p.dreamwidth.org/b164c54b26e4/-/archiveofourown.org/favicon.ico)
Teaotter
Da Qing meets Ying Chun on the university campus.
Welcome, Spring byExtraPenguin
A sweet Ya Qing/Ying Chun scene.
And my own: Listen (it's late, it's late, but listen) byTrobadora
Ya Qing/Ying Chun set during episodes 39/40, with Yashou politics.
Some icons
I wasn't able to find many - anyone have more? These are from the Guardian character battle:
So - come and talk about Ying Chun! Share links to meta, picspams, and related fanworks, new or old! Self-recs whole-heartedly encouraged. Basically, this is the place for anything you want to say or link to about Ying Chun.
Important: If you're commenting with meta/discussion/thoughts, please say whether you're coming from a novel perspective, a drama perspective, or a blend of the two, so we don't end up talking past each other. Thanks!
(I originally thought she was a forsythia until I looked up her name! But Google tells me I'm not the only one to confuse these two early-spring bright yellow bushes.)
In the drama, she's the intensely non-interventionist leader of the Flower Tribe, and Ya Qing's childhood friend. She can appear as a flowering bush, as a tree woman, or in human form (with yellow blossoms in her hair), and she can fly through the air in the form of sparkling blossoms.
She wears bright colours, and seems very bouncy and perky, but - and I didn't notice this until I made screencaps for this post - we hardly ever see her happy and smiling. (With the notable exception of that time Zhao Yunlan was being silly and charming at her in episode 21. *g*)
I know nothing about her novel counterpart beyond what
extrapenguin's dramatis personae says - she's apparently a "junior flower fairy who looks about 15 in human form". So all of the rest of this will apply to the drama only. But I'd love to hear more about her role in the novel, and whether there's more there that the drama drew from.The bush and the woman
Ying Chun first appears in episode 6, in bush and tree-woman form, but isn't seen in human form until episode 13, where she is also first named. I remember there was some discussion once about whether this is in fact the same person - here's why I assume it is:
- the bush is winter jasmine, which is her name;
- Ying Chun has the same flowers in her hair, and flies as a disembodied sparkle of the same flowers;
- she talks in the same brisk and chipper tone;
- her characterisation with its emphasis on not wanting to fight or interfere, but also her desire and willingness to help, is consistent;
- and in the opening narration of episode 1, where Ying Chun is used as a stand-in for the Flower Tribe, we see the transformation from her human appearance to her tree-woman shape.
If it's related to fighting, we can't help.
When Shen Wei first approaches Ying Chun, she's been at the university long enough to recognise him as a professor. She's been spending her time there as a bush, for reasons only known to her. Shen Wei asks her to help, and she is very willing to, but also firm on her boundaries:
Ying Chun: "Black-Cloaked Highness, please forgive me. Can the Flower Tribe assist with anything, sir? I must point out, if it's related to fighting, we can't help." (episode 6)
This sets up her central conflict and the focus of her character arc right at the start: fight, or not? Interfere, or not?
Shen Wei asks her help in finding someone, and in episode 8 he says she did help him. Did he ask her to look for mirror!Zhou Weiwei? That would make sense: he'd just at the end of the last case (in episode 5) discovered that a member of his former team who was searching for the Hallows, then went AWOL and died, had left a child behind.
In episode 8, Shen Wei talks to Ying Chun a little about his troubles, but she doesn't respond, apparently not willing to be drawn too deeply into his issues. But when he ends up in a fight with Zhu Jiu right in front of her, she interferes nonetheless, restraining Zhu Jiu. She's clearly uncomfortable with it, though, and tries to remove herself from the situation by leaving the university:
Ying Chun: At first I agreed to help you because of your good intentions. But now, there is constantly trouble here. When the powerful fight, the weak suffer. For millennia, the Flower Tribe kept out of the conflict between your camps. Our clan is weak, but we have our own way of surviving trouble.
Perhaps her worry about her people is why we never see any other Flower Tribe member - she keeps them out of this altogether. Before she goes, Shen Wei asks her one last question:
Shen Wei: What I was looking for last time... you know where it is, right?
It's a thing he says he was looking for here (东西), though it was definitely a person last time (一个人). I assume that's because all of this is connected to his search for the Mountain-River Awl - he was hoping Mirror Girl would have a clue (which she did). But I find it very interesting that this implies Ying Chun knows where one of the Hallows is. How? We don't know. And she's hesitant to tell Shen Wei, though clearly not out of a lack of trust in his motives:
Ying Chun: Knowing its location, what would you do? You really want to try and get it back all by yourself? If you're injured or dead, the people who need your protection will be in danger.
She seems very focused on maintaining the status quo. But I assume she does tell him in the end, since Shen Wei starts planning his trip to the mountains very shortly after this.
We have to pull her back.
The next time we see Ying Chun, she's in human form, and though she attempted to remove herself from the brewing conflict, now she is the one approaching Shen Wei: she's warning him about a Yashou traitor who's working with Shen Wei's enemies. Despite her strict philosophy of non-interference, or perhaps because of it, Ying Chun won't stand by and ignore it when other Yashou break the treaty by interfering. Not even when it's her childhood friend Ya Qing, whom she still cares for:
Ying Chun: "She was not like this before." (episode 13)
Ying Chun also warns Shen Wei again that he's putting himself in danger, but that's hardly a deterrent for him. *g*
And a little later, when Shen Wei is searching for Zhao Yunlan, Ying Chun again approaches Shen Wei, telling him to leave Ya Qing to her. Which leads to a lovely scene of Ying Chun running after Ya Qing, "shouting "Qing-jie!!!!", and stepping into her path. They discuss their fundamental disagreement in a fraught emotional scene:
Ying Chun: "According to the original agreement we can't interfere their internal conflict. Only then they won't bother us in return."
Ya Qing: "Following the old rules there won't be opportunities for Yashou revivification."
Ying Chun wants the Yashou to remain neutral and stay out of whatever conflict is happening; she insists on adherence to (her interpretation of) the treaty, which she believes has kept them safe in the past. Ya Qing has decided neutrality isn't going to serve them any longer. Ying Chun appeals to Ya Qing as her childhood friend, but Ya Qing, despite clearly being affected, tells her it's too late, and leaves. Ying Chun looks after her, her lip wobbling:
Ying Chun: "Why does it have to be like this?"
Ying Chun would have liked to keep out of things, but she's not a very passive person, and now she's determined to stop Ya Qing. In episode 19, when Shen Wei goes to ask Fourth Uncle to keep Qing busy for a few hours while he and ZYL work to trap Zhu Jiu with a blackout, it's Ying Chun who pushes him to agree. (These two Yashou leaders seem to have a long-standing relationship of the friendly bickering type - she calls him "old worm", he calls her "smelly bud". *g*) Unlike Fourth Uncle, Ying Chun has already recognised that now that Ya Qing has involved herself, staying entirely out of it is no longer possible for the Yashou. But her hope is still to change Ya Qing's mind:
Ying Chun: "She's chosen the wrong path. We have to pull her back."
She is looking to stop her from continuing to interfere, so they can return to the status quo.
They keep Ya Qing at Fourth Uncle's house while Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei trap Zhu Jiu, but eventually Ya Qing leaves, set upon her path. Ying Chun stands up as well and takes a few steps after her, but stops, recognising she doesn't know how to get through to her. Perhaps it's dawning on her that Ya Qing really won't be deterred from her path.
And in episode 21, when Ying Chun arrives on the scene to find Ya Qing having killed a Snake Tribe man, threatening Zhu Hong and considering leaving the Yashou alliance, her reaction is strong:
Ying Chun: "Qing-jie, are you crazy?"
After Zhu Hong is freed from Ya Qing's claws, Ying Chun holds on tightly to her afterwards, not letting go for the entire scene. She seems very protective, and I think this is a turning point for her - from thereon, she knows it's too late to try and stop what's happening.
No retreat.
When Ya Qing, her Crows and Ye Zun's Dixingren confront the other Yashou in episode 37, Ying Chun has reached her lowest point. She no longer attempts to get through to Ya Qing. She calls her criminal, and when the Dixingren press Ya Qing to kill the Yashou leaders, she seems genuinely afraid:
Ying Chun: "Qing-jie, do you really have the heart to kill us?"
Ya Qing turns on Ye Zun's lackeys, and Ying Chun bounces in glee, pumping her fist and squealing - only to immediately look afraid again when Ya Qing snaps at them.
She doesn't stop looking nervous until Ya Qing has failed to make the Sacred Wood sprout, and Zhu Hong has succeeded. And when Ya Qing says she's realised working with humans might be better for the Yashou, Ying Chun is very pleased - even though that's far from the non-interference in Dixing-Haixing matters that she used to insist on.
It seems to me that she'd given up hope, found herself standing on what looked to be the losing side of this conflict even without really meaning to be involved, and then regained hope when Ya Qing turned on Ye Zun. And when Ya Qing finally fully changes sides, she knows there's no way around this conflict any more.
From then on, Ying Chun doesn't hesitate. In episode 28, the Yashou leaders and the SID all face Professor Ouyang together. In episode 39, they get ready to fight Ye Zun's Dixingren, and all three Yashou leaders end up fighting side by side with Zhang Shi/Zhao Xinci.
Even though Zhao Xinci gives the Yashou an out, Ying Chun is very pleased when Fourth Uncle rejects it:
Zhao Xinci: "You're all Yashou. You have no obligation to contribute so much in our war against Dixing. Find a chance to retreat!"
Fourth Uncle: "Nonsense. I understand now. Ye Zun clearly wants to kill all living creatures on Haixing. If we don't help you out now, who'll help us in the future?"
Ying Chun: "Old worm, you don't often say something so accurate."
She's come a long way from the woman who said that if it came to fighting, she couldn't help.
Some questions:
- Why has Ying Chun been spending time as a bush at the university? (Do you think people on campus ever notice bushes suddenly going walkabout? *g*)
- When Shen Wei first reveals himself to her by summoning his glaive, Ying Chun immediately switches from 你 nǐ (normal/informal you) to 您 nín (formal you), but the next time they talk, she's back at 你. Do you think that's because she recognised she doesn't need to be formal with him, or is she just not capable of/willing to maintain that level of politeness for long? (It would totally suit her personality! *g*)
- Why does Ying Chun interfere in Shen Wei's fight with Zhu Jiu, despite her protests that if it comes to fighting, the Flower Tribe can't help?
- Ying Chun goes from insisting the Flower Tribe doesn't fight, and firmly believing in not interfering in Dixing/Haixing relations, to fighting alongside the other Yashou as well as Zhao Xinci/Zhang Shi against Ye Zun's invasion. What do you make of her character arc? When do you think she changes her mind? Why?
- Did Ying Chun know about the Awl's location all along? How? Or did she recently find out? (How?)
And if she's known for some time, do you think she should have told anyone? Or was it better kept a secret? - Ya Qing tells Ying Chun she doesn't understand her motives. Do you think Ying Chun ever does (come to) understand Ya Qing's urgent desire to revitalise the Yashou, if not the lengths she went to for that goal?
- It's Fourth Uncle who, in reaction to Ya Qing's actions, decides to call an election for Yashou High Chief after many years of the position being empty. We never really see Ying Chun's reaction to that. How do you think she felt about it - both the idea of the election, and Fourth Uncle pretty much just announcing it? (Or do you think they maybe talked about it before?)
- How do you think Ying Chun will deal with Zhu Hong becoming High Chief? Does she care, beyond the fact that it resolves the immediate problem of Ya Qing's ambitions? Is she going to listen to Zhu Hong, who is very much for a closer relationship between the three species, or will she go back to trying to be as uninvolved as possible afterwards?
- Ying Chun's interactions with Ya Qing are very slashy - Ying Chun's feelings for Ya Qing are palpable every time she confronts her or tries to pull her back from the path she's on. She keeps appealing to Ya Qing's better self and their former closeness, and keeps hoping to win her back, and is visibly delighted when Ya Qing switches sides at the end.
And Ying Chun doesn't interact with very many people, but she seems very protective of Zhu Hong after Ya Qing attacks her. In episode 30, when the SID is dissolved and everyone's hiding, it's Ying Chun who goes to pick up Zhu Hong, and they even end up holding hands! It's Ying Chun, too, who helps Zhu Hong convince her uncle not to make her go home with him.
Do you ship either of these pairings? Or do you have other ships for her?
Some links
Fanfic
Ying Chun is only tagged in six work. The following have her as a main character:
what you see by
Da Qing meets Ying Chun on the university campus.
Welcome, Spring by
A sweet Ya Qing/Ying Chun scene.
And my own: Listen (it's late, it's late, but listen) by
Ya Qing/Ying Chun set during episodes 39/40, with Yashou politics.
Some icons
I wasn't able to find many - anyone have more? These are from the Guardian character battle:
| abyss_valkyrie |
china_shop |
tsubame_17 |
 |
 |
 |
So - come and talk about Ying Chun! Share links to meta, picspams, and related fanworks, new or old! Self-recs whole-heartedly encouraged. Basically, this is the place for anything you want to say or link to about Ying Chun.
Important: If you're commenting with meta/discussion/thoughts, please say whether you're coming from a novel perspective, a drama perspective, or a blend of the two, so we don't end up talking past each other. Thanks!
no subject
It's in episode 13, at about 19:33, right at the end of the scene of Zhu Jiu meeting Ya Qing on the cement roof, where Zhu Jiu has taken Zheng Yi. This close-up shot of potted flowers on the cement roof seemed random to me for a long time, but then I noticed that the next scene we see of Ying Chun is when she's warning Shen Wei that "we just got information that one of your enemies is likely a Yashou traitor." (And more and more, I feel like there aren't really any random shots in this show; they worked hard within their limitations.) My theory is that this member of the Flower Tribe sends the information about Ya Qing working with Shen Wei's enemies to Ying Chun. I like to envision a whole network of the Flower Tribe hiding in plain sight, observing and sharing information, at least among themselves. This could explain how Ying Chun could know about the Mountain-River Awl -- from Flower Tribe connections.
For what it's worth, I always thought these background Yashou (wearing white) in episode 37 were Flower Tribe members:
because of their white costumes (some with ruffles) and at least one is wearing a colorful skirt. They could be Snake Tribe, although the Snake Tribe men wear grey and/or black. But I associate these background Yashou with the Yashou we see more clearly in episode 35, during the flashback when the Yashou tribes go off on their own after Fu You says good-bye to Da Qing and Ma Gui.
Some of them have flowers in their hair (you can see this from the overhead distance shot of the scene), and when the tribes leave, the Yashou wearing white with colors leave separately from the Snake Tribe led by Fu You. I feel pretty strongly that these Yashou in episode 35 are Flower Tribe Yashou who were part of the alliance, and their similar dress to the background Yashou in episode 37 makes me think the ones in episode 37 are also Flower Tribe.
no subject
no subject
OHHHH wow, what an excellent catch! I used to think the flower shot was just one of those framing things they do, where they shoot through windows or from odd angles, but I've rewatched it just now, and what you're saying makes so much sense. If it had cut from the flower directly to the Ying Chun/Shen Wei scene it would have been entirely obvious, but even like this - I think you're 100% correct, this is very deliberate.
And more and more, I feel like there aren't really any random shots in this show; they worked hard within their limitations.
Yes! They really made the most of what they did have - the cinematography is excellent.
I always thought these background Yashou (wearing white) in episode 37 were Flower Tribe members
Oh! I noticed them, but never paid much attention. The last time I watched I wondered if those were Snake tribe women and they wear different colours from the men. But thank you so much for pointing out the comparison with episode 35. In that light, you're totally right, they have to be Flower Tribe members.
Thank you for these, seriously - I love how we can still discover new things about this show two years later. :D
no subject
Ahh, that's such a great catch! Cool! (So what about the fish in Shen Wei's office? I keep thinking they might be Yashou, too, and keeping an eye on him, just from the way the camera pulls back to focus on them in one shot. *g*)
That's what I was thinking, too. And even if there are no living Flower Tribe members who were alive then, the information could have been handed down through the generations. (Might that also explain how Zhu Jiu learns the Awl's whereabouts? Maybe that distant branch (ha!) of the Flower Tribe shares the info with Ya Qing, not realising she's working with someone trying to overthrow the treaty?)
Oh, that's really cool! Good to see there were women fighters in the ancient war, too. I hadn't really been paying attention to that, except that all of Shen Wei's soldiers seemed to be men.