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sid_guardian2020-08-08 09:35 pm
trobadora) wrote in sid_guardian2020-08-08 09:35 pm
Entry tags:
Focus on Ying Chun: we can't interfere
Ying Chun: her name means "welcome spring", and is the Chinese name for Winter Jasmine.
(I originally thought she was a forsythia until I looked up her name! But Google tells me I'm not the only one to confuse these two early-spring bright yellow bushes.)
In the drama, she's the intensely non-interventionist leader of the Flower Tribe, and Ya Qing's childhood friend. She can appear as a flowering bush, as a tree woman, or in human form (with yellow blossoms in her hair), and she can fly through the air in the form of sparkling blossoms.
She wears bright colours, and seems very bouncy and perky, but - and I didn't notice this until I made screencaps for this post - we hardly ever see her happy and smiling. (With the notable exception of that time Zhao Yunlan was being silly and charming at her in episode 21. *g*)
I know nothing about her novel counterpart beyond whatextrapenguin's dramatis personae says - she's apparently a "junior flower fairy who looks about 15 in human form". So all of the rest of this will apply to the drama only. But I'd love to hear more about her role in the novel, and whether there's more there that the drama drew from.
Ying Chun first appears in episode 6, in bush and tree-woman form, but isn't seen in human form until episode 13, where she is also first named. I remember there was some discussion once about whether this is in fact the same person - here's why I assume it is:
When Shen Wei first approaches Ying Chun, she's been at the university long enough to recognise him as a professor. She's been spending her time there as a bush, for reasons only known to her. Shen Wei asks her to help, and she is very willing to, but also firm on her boundaries:
Ying Chun: "Black-Cloaked Highness, please forgive me. Can the Flower Tribe assist with anything, sir? I must point out, if it's related to fighting, we can't help." (episode 6)
This sets up her central conflict and the focus of her character arc right at the start: fight, or not? Interfere, or not?
Shen Wei asks her help in finding someone, and in episode 8 he says she did help him. Did he ask her to look for mirror!Zhou Weiwei? That would make sense: he'd just at the end of the last case (in episode 5) discovered that a member of his former team who was searching for the Hallows, then went AWOL and died, had left a child behind.
In episode 8, Shen Wei talks to Ying Chun a little about his troubles, but she doesn't respond, apparently not willing to be drawn too deeply into his issues. But when he ends up in a fight with Zhu Jiu right in front of her, she interferes nonetheless, restraining Zhu Jiu. She's clearly uncomfortable with it, though, and tries to remove herself from the situation by leaving the university:
Ying Chun: At first I agreed to help you because of your good intentions. But now, there is constantly trouble here. When the powerful fight, the weak suffer. For millennia, the Flower Tribe kept out of the conflict between your camps. Our clan is weak, but we have our own way of surviving trouble.
Perhaps her worry about her people is why we never see any other Flower Tribe member - she keeps them out of this altogether. Before she goes, Shen Wei asks her one last question:
Shen Wei: What I was looking for last time... you know where it is, right?
It's a thing he says he was looking for here (东西), though it was definitely a person last time (一个人). I assume that's because all of this is connected to his search for the Mountain-River Awl - he was hoping Mirror Girl would have a clue (which she did). But I find it very interesting that this implies Ying Chun knows where one of the Hallows is. How? We don't know. And she's hesitant to tell Shen Wei, though clearly not out of a lack of trust in his motives:
Ying Chun: Knowing its location, what would you do? You really want to try and get it back all by yourself? If you're injured or dead, the people who need your protection will be in danger.
She seems very focused on maintaining the status quo. But I assume she does tell him in the end, since Shen Wei starts planning his trip to the mountains very shortly after this.
The next time we see Ying Chun, she's in human form, and though she attempted to remove herself from the brewing conflict, now she is the one approaching Shen Wei: she's warning him about a Yashou traitor who's working with Shen Wei's enemies. Despite her strict philosophy of non-interference, or perhaps because of it, Ying Chun won't stand by and ignore it when other Yashou break the treaty by interfering. Not even when it's her childhood friend Ya Qing, whom she still cares for:
Ying Chun: "She was not like this before." (episode 13)
Ying Chun also warns Shen Wei again that he's putting himself in danger, but that's hardly a deterrent for him. *g*
And a little later, when Shen Wei is searching for Zhao Yunlan, Ying Chun again approaches Shen Wei, telling him to leave Ya Qing to her. Which leads to a lovely scene of Ying Chun running after Ya Qing, "shouting "Qing-jie!!!!", and stepping into her path. They discuss their fundamental disagreement in a fraught emotional scene:
Ying Chun: "According to the original agreement we can't interfere their internal conflict. Only then they won't bother us in return."
Ya Qing: "Following the old rules there won't be opportunities for Yashou revivification."
Ying Chun wants the Yashou to remain neutral and stay out of whatever conflict is happening; she insists on adherence to (her interpretation of) the treaty, which she believes has kept them safe in the past. Ya Qing has decided neutrality isn't going to serve them any longer. Ying Chun appeals to Ya Qing as her childhood friend, but Ya Qing, despite clearly being affected, tells her it's too late, and leaves. Ying Chun looks after her, her lip wobbling:
Ying Chun: "Why does it have to be like this?"
Ying Chun would have liked to keep out of things, but she's not a very passive person, and now she's determined to stop Ya Qing. In episode 19, when Shen Wei goes to ask Fourth Uncle to keep Qing busy for a few hours while he and ZYL work to trap Zhu Jiu with a blackout, it's Ying Chun who pushes him to agree. (These two Yashou leaders seem to have a long-standing relationship of the friendly bickering type - she calls him "old worm", he calls her "smelly bud". *g*) Unlike Fourth Uncle, Ying Chun has already recognised that now that Ya Qing has involved herself, staying entirely out of it is no longer possible for the Yashou. But her hope is still to change Ya Qing's mind:
Ying Chun: "She's chosen the wrong path. We have to pull her back."
She is looking to stop her from continuing to interfere, so they can return to the status quo.
They keep Ya Qing at Fourth Uncle's house while Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei trap Zhu Jiu, but eventually Ya Qing leaves, set upon her path. Ying Chun stands up as well and takes a few steps after her, but stops, recognising she doesn't know how to get through to her. Perhaps it's dawning on her that Ya Qing really won't be deterred from her path.
And in episode 21, when Ying Chun arrives on the scene to find Ya Qing having killed a Snake Tribe man, threatening Zhu Hong and considering leaving the Yashou alliance, her reaction is strong:
Ying Chun: "Qing-jie, are you crazy?"
After Zhu Hong is freed from Ya Qing's claws, Ying Chun holds on tightly to her afterwards, not letting go for the entire scene. She seems very protective, and I think this is a turning point for her - from thereon, she knows it's too late to try and stop what's happening.
When Ya Qing, her Crows and Ye Zun's Dixingren confront the other Yashou in episode 37, Ying Chun has reached her lowest point. She no longer attempts to get through to Ya Qing. She calls her criminal, and when the Dixingren press Ya Qing to kill the Yashou leaders, she seems genuinely afraid:
Ying Chun: "Qing-jie, do you really have the heart to kill us?"
Ya Qing turns on Ye Zun's lackeys, and Ying Chun bounces in glee, pumping her fist and squealing - only to immediately look afraid again when Ya Qing snaps at them.
She doesn't stop looking nervous until Ya Qing has failed to make the Sacred Wood sprout, and Zhu Hong has succeeded. And when Ya Qing says she's realised working with humans might be better for the Yashou, Ying Chun is very pleased - even though that's far from the non-interference in Dixing-Haixing matters that she used to insist on.
It seems to me that she'd given up hope, found herself standing on what looked to be the losing side of this conflict even without really meaning to be involved, and then regained hope when Ya Qing turned on Ye Zun. And when Ya Qing finally fully changes sides, she knows there's no way around this conflict any more.
From then on, Ying Chun doesn't hesitate. In episode 28, the Yashou leaders and the SID all face Professor Ouyang together. In episode 39, they get ready to fight Ye Zun's Dixingren, and all three Yashou leaders end up fighting side by side with Zhang Shi/Zhao Xinci.
Even though Zhao Xinci gives the Yashou an out, Ying Chun is very pleased when Fourth Uncle rejects it:
Zhao Xinci: "You're all Yashou. You have no obligation to contribute so much in our war against Dixing. Find a chance to retreat!"
Fourth Uncle: "Nonsense. I understand now. Ye Zun clearly wants to kill all living creatures on Haixing. If we don't help you out now, who'll help us in the future?"
Ying Chun: "Old worm, you don't often say something so accurate."
She's come a long way from the woman who said that if it came to fighting, she couldn't help.
Fanfic
Ying Chun is only tagged in six work. The following have her as a main character:
what you see by![[archiveofourown.org profile]](https://p.dreamwidth.org/b164c54b26e4/-/archiveofourown.org/favicon.ico)
Teaotter
Da Qing meets Ying Chun on the university campus.
Welcome, Spring byExtraPenguin
A sweet Ya Qing/Ying Chun scene.
And my own: Listen (it's late, it's late, but listen) byTrobadora
Ya Qing/Ying Chun set during episodes 39/40, with Yashou politics.
Some icons
I wasn't able to find many - anyone have more? These are from the Guardian character battle:
So - come and talk about Ying Chun! Share links to meta, picspams, and related fanworks, new or old! Self-recs whole-heartedly encouraged. Basically, this is the place for anything you want to say or link to about Ying Chun.
Important: If you're commenting with meta/discussion/thoughts, please say whether you're coming from a novel perspective, a drama perspective, or a blend of the two, so we don't end up talking past each other. Thanks!
(I originally thought she was a forsythia until I looked up her name! But Google tells me I'm not the only one to confuse these two early-spring bright yellow bushes.)
In the drama, she's the intensely non-interventionist leader of the Flower Tribe, and Ya Qing's childhood friend. She can appear as a flowering bush, as a tree woman, or in human form (with yellow blossoms in her hair), and she can fly through the air in the form of sparkling blossoms.
She wears bright colours, and seems very bouncy and perky, but - and I didn't notice this until I made screencaps for this post - we hardly ever see her happy and smiling. (With the notable exception of that time Zhao Yunlan was being silly and charming at her in episode 21. *g*)
I know nothing about her novel counterpart beyond what
extrapenguin's dramatis personae says - she's apparently a "junior flower fairy who looks about 15 in human form". So all of the rest of this will apply to the drama only. But I'd love to hear more about her role in the novel, and whether there's more there that the drama drew from.The bush and the woman
Ying Chun first appears in episode 6, in bush and tree-woman form, but isn't seen in human form until episode 13, where she is also first named. I remember there was some discussion once about whether this is in fact the same person - here's why I assume it is:
- the bush is winter jasmine, which is her name;
- Ying Chun has the same flowers in her hair, and flies as a disembodied sparkle of the same flowers;
- she talks in the same brisk and chipper tone;
- her characterisation with its emphasis on not wanting to fight or interfere, but also her desire and willingness to help, is consistent;
- and in the opening narration of episode 1, where Ying Chun is used as a stand-in for the Flower Tribe, we see the transformation from her human appearance to her tree-woman shape.
If it's related to fighting, we can't help.
When Shen Wei first approaches Ying Chun, she's been at the university long enough to recognise him as a professor. She's been spending her time there as a bush, for reasons only known to her. Shen Wei asks her to help, and she is very willing to, but also firm on her boundaries:
Ying Chun: "Black-Cloaked Highness, please forgive me. Can the Flower Tribe assist with anything, sir? I must point out, if it's related to fighting, we can't help." (episode 6)
This sets up her central conflict and the focus of her character arc right at the start: fight, or not? Interfere, or not?
Shen Wei asks her help in finding someone, and in episode 8 he says she did help him. Did he ask her to look for mirror!Zhou Weiwei? That would make sense: he'd just at the end of the last case (in episode 5) discovered that a member of his former team who was searching for the Hallows, then went AWOL and died, had left a child behind.
In episode 8, Shen Wei talks to Ying Chun a little about his troubles, but she doesn't respond, apparently not willing to be drawn too deeply into his issues. But when he ends up in a fight with Zhu Jiu right in front of her, she interferes nonetheless, restraining Zhu Jiu. She's clearly uncomfortable with it, though, and tries to remove herself from the situation by leaving the university:
Ying Chun: At first I agreed to help you because of your good intentions. But now, there is constantly trouble here. When the powerful fight, the weak suffer. For millennia, the Flower Tribe kept out of the conflict between your camps. Our clan is weak, but we have our own way of surviving trouble.
Perhaps her worry about her people is why we never see any other Flower Tribe member - she keeps them out of this altogether. Before she goes, Shen Wei asks her one last question:
Shen Wei: What I was looking for last time... you know where it is, right?
It's a thing he says he was looking for here (东西), though it was definitely a person last time (一个人). I assume that's because all of this is connected to his search for the Mountain-River Awl - he was hoping Mirror Girl would have a clue (which she did). But I find it very interesting that this implies Ying Chun knows where one of the Hallows is. How? We don't know. And she's hesitant to tell Shen Wei, though clearly not out of a lack of trust in his motives:
Ying Chun: Knowing its location, what would you do? You really want to try and get it back all by yourself? If you're injured or dead, the people who need your protection will be in danger.
She seems very focused on maintaining the status quo. But I assume she does tell him in the end, since Shen Wei starts planning his trip to the mountains very shortly after this.
We have to pull her back.
The next time we see Ying Chun, she's in human form, and though she attempted to remove herself from the brewing conflict, now she is the one approaching Shen Wei: she's warning him about a Yashou traitor who's working with Shen Wei's enemies. Despite her strict philosophy of non-interference, or perhaps because of it, Ying Chun won't stand by and ignore it when other Yashou break the treaty by interfering. Not even when it's her childhood friend Ya Qing, whom she still cares for:
Ying Chun: "She was not like this before." (episode 13)
Ying Chun also warns Shen Wei again that he's putting himself in danger, but that's hardly a deterrent for him. *g*
And a little later, when Shen Wei is searching for Zhao Yunlan, Ying Chun again approaches Shen Wei, telling him to leave Ya Qing to her. Which leads to a lovely scene of Ying Chun running after Ya Qing, "shouting "Qing-jie!!!!", and stepping into her path. They discuss their fundamental disagreement in a fraught emotional scene:
Ying Chun: "According to the original agreement we can't interfere their internal conflict. Only then they won't bother us in return."
Ya Qing: "Following the old rules there won't be opportunities for Yashou revivification."
Ying Chun wants the Yashou to remain neutral and stay out of whatever conflict is happening; she insists on adherence to (her interpretation of) the treaty, which she believes has kept them safe in the past. Ya Qing has decided neutrality isn't going to serve them any longer. Ying Chun appeals to Ya Qing as her childhood friend, but Ya Qing, despite clearly being affected, tells her it's too late, and leaves. Ying Chun looks after her, her lip wobbling:
Ying Chun: "Why does it have to be like this?"
Ying Chun would have liked to keep out of things, but she's not a very passive person, and now she's determined to stop Ya Qing. In episode 19, when Shen Wei goes to ask Fourth Uncle to keep Qing busy for a few hours while he and ZYL work to trap Zhu Jiu with a blackout, it's Ying Chun who pushes him to agree. (These two Yashou leaders seem to have a long-standing relationship of the friendly bickering type - she calls him "old worm", he calls her "smelly bud". *g*) Unlike Fourth Uncle, Ying Chun has already recognised that now that Ya Qing has involved herself, staying entirely out of it is no longer possible for the Yashou. But her hope is still to change Ya Qing's mind:
Ying Chun: "She's chosen the wrong path. We have to pull her back."
She is looking to stop her from continuing to interfere, so they can return to the status quo.
They keep Ya Qing at Fourth Uncle's house while Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei trap Zhu Jiu, but eventually Ya Qing leaves, set upon her path. Ying Chun stands up as well and takes a few steps after her, but stops, recognising she doesn't know how to get through to her. Perhaps it's dawning on her that Ya Qing really won't be deterred from her path.
And in episode 21, when Ying Chun arrives on the scene to find Ya Qing having killed a Snake Tribe man, threatening Zhu Hong and considering leaving the Yashou alliance, her reaction is strong:
Ying Chun: "Qing-jie, are you crazy?"
After Zhu Hong is freed from Ya Qing's claws, Ying Chun holds on tightly to her afterwards, not letting go for the entire scene. She seems very protective, and I think this is a turning point for her - from thereon, she knows it's too late to try and stop what's happening.
No retreat.
When Ya Qing, her Crows and Ye Zun's Dixingren confront the other Yashou in episode 37, Ying Chun has reached her lowest point. She no longer attempts to get through to Ya Qing. She calls her criminal, and when the Dixingren press Ya Qing to kill the Yashou leaders, she seems genuinely afraid:
Ying Chun: "Qing-jie, do you really have the heart to kill us?"
Ya Qing turns on Ye Zun's lackeys, and Ying Chun bounces in glee, pumping her fist and squealing - only to immediately look afraid again when Ya Qing snaps at them.
She doesn't stop looking nervous until Ya Qing has failed to make the Sacred Wood sprout, and Zhu Hong has succeeded. And when Ya Qing says she's realised working with humans might be better for the Yashou, Ying Chun is very pleased - even though that's far from the non-interference in Dixing-Haixing matters that she used to insist on.
It seems to me that she'd given up hope, found herself standing on what looked to be the losing side of this conflict even without really meaning to be involved, and then regained hope when Ya Qing turned on Ye Zun. And when Ya Qing finally fully changes sides, she knows there's no way around this conflict any more.
From then on, Ying Chun doesn't hesitate. In episode 28, the Yashou leaders and the SID all face Professor Ouyang together. In episode 39, they get ready to fight Ye Zun's Dixingren, and all three Yashou leaders end up fighting side by side with Zhang Shi/Zhao Xinci.
Even though Zhao Xinci gives the Yashou an out, Ying Chun is very pleased when Fourth Uncle rejects it:
Zhao Xinci: "You're all Yashou. You have no obligation to contribute so much in our war against Dixing. Find a chance to retreat!"
Fourth Uncle: "Nonsense. I understand now. Ye Zun clearly wants to kill all living creatures on Haixing. If we don't help you out now, who'll help us in the future?"
Ying Chun: "Old worm, you don't often say something so accurate."
She's come a long way from the woman who said that if it came to fighting, she couldn't help.
Some questions:
- Why has Ying Chun been spending time as a bush at the university? (Do you think people on campus ever notice bushes suddenly going walkabout? *g*)
- When Shen Wei first reveals himself to her by summoning his glaive, Ying Chun immediately switches from 你 nǐ (normal/informal you) to 您 nín (formal you), but the next time they talk, she's back at 你. Do you think that's because she recognised she doesn't need to be formal with him, or is she just not capable of/willing to maintain that level of politeness for long? (It would totally suit her personality! *g*)
- Why does Ying Chun interfere in Shen Wei's fight with Zhu Jiu, despite her protests that if it comes to fighting, the Flower Tribe can't help?
- Ying Chun goes from insisting the Flower Tribe doesn't fight, and firmly believing in not interfering in Dixing/Haixing relations, to fighting alongside the other Yashou as well as Zhao Xinci/Zhang Shi against Ye Zun's invasion. What do you make of her character arc? When do you think she changes her mind? Why?
- Did Ying Chun know about the Awl's location all along? How? Or did she recently find out? (How?)
And if she's known for some time, do you think she should have told anyone? Or was it better kept a secret? - Ya Qing tells Ying Chun she doesn't understand her motives. Do you think Ying Chun ever does (come to) understand Ya Qing's urgent desire to revitalise the Yashou, if not the lengths she went to for that goal?
- It's Fourth Uncle who, in reaction to Ya Qing's actions, decides to call an election for Yashou High Chief after many years of the position being empty. We never really see Ying Chun's reaction to that. How do you think she felt about it - both the idea of the election, and Fourth Uncle pretty much just announcing it? (Or do you think they maybe talked about it before?)
- How do you think Ying Chun will deal with Zhu Hong becoming High Chief? Does she care, beyond the fact that it resolves the immediate problem of Ya Qing's ambitions? Is she going to listen to Zhu Hong, who is very much for a closer relationship between the three species, or will she go back to trying to be as uninvolved as possible afterwards?
- Ying Chun's interactions with Ya Qing are very slashy - Ying Chun's feelings for Ya Qing are palpable every time she confronts her or tries to pull her back from the path she's on. She keeps appealing to Ya Qing's better self and their former closeness, and keeps hoping to win her back, and is visibly delighted when Ya Qing switches sides at the end.
And Ying Chun doesn't interact with very many people, but she seems very protective of Zhu Hong after Ya Qing attacks her. In episode 30, when the SID is dissolved and everyone's hiding, it's Ying Chun who goes to pick up Zhu Hong, and they even end up holding hands! It's Ying Chun, too, who helps Zhu Hong convince her uncle not to make her go home with him.
Do you ship either of these pairings? Or do you have other ships for her?
Some links
Fanfic
Ying Chun is only tagged in six work. The following have her as a main character:
what you see by
Da Qing meets Ying Chun on the university campus.
Welcome, Spring by
A sweet Ya Qing/Ying Chun scene.
And my own: Listen (it's late, it's late, but listen) by
Ya Qing/Ying Chun set during episodes 39/40, with Yashou politics.
Some icons
I wasn't able to find many - anyone have more? These are from the Guardian character battle:
| abyss_valkyrie |
china_shop |
tsubame_17 |
 |
 |
 |
So - come and talk about Ying Chun! Share links to meta, picspams, and related fanworks, new or old! Self-recs whole-heartedly encouraged. Basically, this is the place for anything you want to say or link to about Ying Chun.
Important: If you're commenting with meta/discussion/thoughts, please say whether you're coming from a novel perspective, a drama perspective, or a blend of the two, so we don't end up talking past each other. Thanks!
no subject
I do like the idea that flowers have no time for hierarchy. *g* She doesn't seem at all interested in taking a greater leadership role among the Yashou, either -- maybe the rest of the Flower tribe are just off
getting stoned anddoing their own thing? :-) (Maybe some of them are attending university, and that's why she's there -- to visit?)Or maybe it's a side-effect of being able to thrive from just sun and rain and soil. Subservient to no one!
I think she was saying they'd stay out of a wider political fight, not a one-on-one. And it's the Envoy! Of course she's on his side!
I wonder if she starts out trying to compensate for the damage Ya Qing is doing, hoping that if she can balance the scales, the Yashou can still effectively be considered neutral. And then she sees the lengths Ya Qing is willing to go to, and she realises how dangerous Team Ye Zun really is -- for all of them. I suspect, as you say, Ya Qing having killed Jia-ge and threatening to kill Zhu Hong was a big turning point.
We don't know how long-lived flowers are, do we? Maybe there are still some around who were seedlings in that field of flowers where Ge Lan met Sang Zan?
Who would she tell? Given how greedy and destructive of the environment humans can be, pointing them at a powerful tool seems like a mistake, and she probably doesn't have much contact with Dixingren. And if she's happy with her life, she might not think the Yashou have any need of it. But I don't think she knew before -- I think she found out from the (perhaps literal!) grapevine after Shen Wei asked.
I don't know. I think the Flowers are mostly pretty content. Maybe she learned from seeing Zhu Hong's active relationship with the SID, and the Ying Chu and Ya Qing found a middle ground? And I don't think she minds either way about a Yashou High Chief, though she might think it's a good way to bring Ya Qing back into the fold. The Flowers just want to do their Flower thing. Where necessary, they're extremely good at passive resistance! (I'm open to persuasion otherwise. :-)
I can imagine her going along with things to see how they work out, and letting/encouraging her people to take advantage of new opportunities if they want to, but mostly I think she's pretty content with her life, so long as there's peace.
I really liked your Ya Qing/Ying Chun fic, and would happily read more, but I don't actively ship her with anyone.
My favourite things about Ying Chun are her dedication to Ya Qing and trying to persuade her to come back to the fold, and how amused she is by Zhao Yunlan's outrageousness. :D :D :D
no subject
I do like the idea that flowers have no time for hierarchy.
Yes, me too! She just seems very irreverent to me, despitie her meticulous politeness towards the Envoy the first time she meets him. It doesn't last long!
I think she was saying they'd stay out of a wider political fight, not a one-on-one. And it's the Envoy! Of course she's on his side!
True, and I agree that's why she does interfere - but it's not as if this particular fight is separate from the wider political scenario. She's interfering in what is, essentially, an internal Dixing conflict. And she does it, but I don't think she's happy doing it - there's a reason she tries to remove herself from the scene right after that.
I wonder if she starts out trying to compensate for the damage Ya Qing is doing, hoping that if she can balance the scales, the Yashou can still effectively be considered neutral.
Oooh, yes, that's a great point! And since she clearly does want to help Shen Wei (as seen in her interference in the fight with Zhu Jiu), I wonder if part of her is maybe glad that she has this excuse for following her instincts to help, without compromising her principles?
We don't know how long-lived flowers are, do we? Maybe there are still some around who were seedlings in that field of flowers where Ge Lan met Sang Zan?
Aw, I like that idea!
Who would she tell? Given how greedy and destructive of the environment humans can be, pointing them at a powerful tool seems like a mistake, and she probably doesn't have much contact with Dixingren.
Yeah, but does she know the Hallows belonged to Dixing and vanished from there? If so, shouldn't she make some effort to let Dixing know if one of them turned up? I do wonder how much she knows about Dixing's situation to begin with, but since she knows about the Hallows in general ...
But I don't think she knew before -- I think she found out from the (perhaps literal!) grapevine after Shen Wei asked.
Hee! The literal grapevine, I love that. Yeah, I could see her finding out after he asks. That makes sense to me.
I don't know. I think the Flowers are mostly pretty content. Maybe she learned from seeing Zhu Hong's active relationship with the SID, and the Ying Chu and Ya Qing found a middle ground?
I would like to think so. And I'm sure there have to be Flowers who've had their habitat destroyed by human activity, whether that be building or pollution!
The Flowers just want to do their Flower thing. Where necessary, they're extremely good at passive resistance!
Ha, yes, I can see that. :D
I really liked your Ya Qing/Ying Chun fic, and would happily read more, but I don't actively ship her with anyone.
Thanks muchly!
I never realised how much Ying Chun holds on to Zhu Hong, and how friendly they are afterwards, until I rewatched things for this post. Now I want fic about the two of them!
and how amused she is by Zhao Yunlan's outrageousness. :D :D :D
Ha, YES! That's the only scene we have where she's just grinning and laughing. Go, Zhao Yunlan! :D
no subject
I wonder if that also supports the idea of Flowers being long-lived. If part of the reverence for the Envoy is ancestor worship, that might be mitigated for Flowers by their being very old (and also provide context for Fourth Uncle saying that Snakes aren't very long-lived)?
But she might not know that, right? From her POV, it could be an isolated attack, or just one guy with a grudge?
Would she see that as getting involved, though? Perhaps she's heard enough about the state of Dixing that she's decided it's wiser to just stay out of things, not wanting to risk giving info to the wrong faction (eg, the Regent! I mean, what would have happened if she'd sent him the news?).
Otoh, I feel like people in Haixing don't really know anything about the current state of Dixing. You'd think if anyone knew, word would have got back to the SID and ZYL wouldn't be so surprised by it all in ep 16.
True! Good thing Flower Yashou can relocate relatively painlessly! :-)
no subject
I think you could definitely make a case for it! Canon is so vague on these things, but I'd totally buy it in a fic.
From her POV, it could be an isolated attack, or just one guy with a grudge?
Good point.
And yeah, I suppose no one in Haixing really knows much about what's going on in Dixing ...
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It's in episode 13, at about 19:33, right at the end of the scene of Zhu Jiu meeting Ya Qing on the cement roof, where Zhu Jiu has taken Zheng Yi. This close-up shot of potted flowers on the cement roof seemed random to me for a long time, but then I noticed that the next scene we see of Ying Chun is when she's warning Shen Wei that "we just got information that one of your enemies is likely a Yashou traitor." (And more and more, I feel like there aren't really any random shots in this show; they worked hard within their limitations.) My theory is that this member of the Flower Tribe sends the information about Ya Qing working with Shen Wei's enemies to Ying Chun. I like to envision a whole network of the Flower Tribe hiding in plain sight, observing and sharing information, at least among themselves. This could explain how Ying Chun could know about the Mountain-River Awl -- from Flower Tribe connections.
For what it's worth, I always thought these background Yashou (wearing white) in episode 37 were Flower Tribe members:
because of their white costumes (some with ruffles) and at least one is wearing a colorful skirt. They could be Snake Tribe, although the Snake Tribe men wear grey and/or black. But I associate these background Yashou with the Yashou we see more clearly in episode 35, during the flashback when the Yashou tribes go off on their own after Fu You says good-bye to Da Qing and Ma Gui.
Some of them have flowers in their hair (you can see this from the overhead distance shot of the scene), and when the tribes leave, the Yashou wearing white with colors leave separately from the Snake Tribe led by Fu You. I feel pretty strongly that these Yashou in episode 35 are Flower Tribe Yashou who were part of the alliance, and their similar dress to the background Yashou in episode 37 makes me think the ones in episode 37 are also Flower Tribe.
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OHHHH wow, what an excellent catch! I used to think the flower shot was just one of those framing things they do, where they shoot through windows or from odd angles, but I've rewatched it just now, and what you're saying makes so much sense. If it had cut from the flower directly to the Ying Chun/Shen Wei scene it would have been entirely obvious, but even like this - I think you're 100% correct, this is very deliberate.
And more and more, I feel like there aren't really any random shots in this show; they worked hard within their limitations.
Yes! They really made the most of what they did have - the cinematography is excellent.
I always thought these background Yashou (wearing white) in episode 37 were Flower Tribe members
Oh! I noticed them, but never paid much attention. The last time I watched I wondered if those were Snake tribe women and they wear different colours from the men. But thank you so much for pointing out the comparison with episode 35. In that light, you're totally right, they have to be Flower Tribe members.
Thank you for these, seriously - I love how we can still discover new things about this show two years later. :D
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Ahh, that's such a great catch! Cool! (So what about the fish in Shen Wei's office? I keep thinking they might be Yashou, too, and keeping an eye on him, just from the way the camera pulls back to focus on them in one shot. *g*)
That's what I was thinking, too. And even if there are no living Flower Tribe members who were alive then, the information could have been handed down through the generations. (Might that also explain how Zhu Jiu learns the Awl's whereabouts? Maybe that distant branch (ha!) of the Flower Tribe shares the info with Ya Qing, not realising she's working with someone trying to overthrow the treaty?)
Oh, that's really cool! Good to see there were women fighters in the ancient war, too. I hadn't really been paying attention to that, except that all of Shen Wei's soldiers seemed to be men.
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Why does Ying Chun interfere in Shen Wei's fight with Zhu Jiu, despite her protests that if it comes to fighting, the Flower Tribe can't help?
I always thought that “the Flower Tribe can't help” declaration was her being the leader of the Flower Tribe and that was an official statement - something like “if there is a war we can’t help you fight it”. Her helping Shen Wei in the moment was her decision as one person, not as Ying Chun – representative of the Flower Tribe.
How do you think Ying Chun will deal with Zhu Hong becoming High Chief? Does she care, beyond the fact that it resolves the immediate problem of Ya Qing's ambitions? Is she going to listen to Zhu Hong, who is very much for a closer relationship between the three species, or will she go back to trying to be as uninvolved as possible afterwards?
I think she has no problem with Zhu Hong being High Chief. And her presence on that meeting in the last episode seems to show that she won’t go back to being as uninvolved as the Flower Tribe was before.
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Yes, that makes sense! But it's not like the fight with Zhu Jiu is divorced from that larger conflict, and she's involving herself and the Flower Tribe in that just by taking Shen Wei's side. I wouldn't put it past Zhu Jiu to develop a grudge against the Flower Tribe from that ... *g*
And her presence on that meeting in the last episode seems to show that she won’t go back to being as uninvolved as the Flower Tribe was before.
Yeah, that's a very good scene to end that arc on. Makes me hope they really will all continue to work together from there.
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I just rewatched, and they all grin when Zhu Hong walks up and berates them for arguing. I think they're definitely willing to work together under her leadership now, even if they will keep niggling at each other. :-)
(I was curious to see what Ying Chun was saying in the bickering, which was that the Flower Tribe population was too small -- I don't know if that means she felt like they weren't taking her opinion as seriously because she represented few tribe members or if she was suggesting they should develop policies to increase the size of the tribe? *g*)
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I only watched the drama,so drama perspective.
I never did notice about her not smiling and in general had her painted as a cheerful,bouncy type of person but your discussion!WHOA!
I am starting to wonder if she comes to the university during particular seasons or if she's always there.
I really liked your detailed points about her dialogue,her reaction and how she seems conflicted.
Do the yashou go to school for learning their rules? Maybe a part of her always wanted to 'do' something & probably 'interfere' in conflicts but she was taught not to so maybe that's how she keeps herself from getting involved, by reminding herself of the rules. I only thought of this because she helped Shen Wei during his fight with Ye Zun and as you said,seems conflicted about it.
At first I was like 'Can anyone other than Shen Wei see her tree-face form?'I guess so,or she'd not be in hiding.
Okay but your question got me imagining: During her first month at the Uni she thinks of being relaxed in her tree-face state or shedding some leaves like she's shrugging them off very late at night and a drunk student sees her. He'll probably think he's imagining things and Ying Chun will find out how these kids don't go to bed early!XD
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Right? Somehow she manages to give that impression even while hardly ever smiling! It's a talent. And I really didn't realise either until I was screencapping and went, ... wait. *g*
Do the yashou go to school for learning their rules?
I wonder! They're clearly taught about their history, and about the treaty, and you've got a good point about the conflict between received wisdom and her own desires. Maybe her non-interventionism isn't so much conviction as what she's learned things "should" be like, and she's slowly breaking away from that ...
At first I was like 'Can anyone other than Shen Wei see her tree-face form?'I guess so,or she'd not be in hiding.
In her conversation with Shen Wei in episode 6, she reverts to bush form the moment Zhao Yunlan turns up on his motorcycle, so I assume everyone can see it, yeah.
Okay but your question got me imagining: During her first month at the Uni she thinks of being relaxed in her tree-face state or shedding some leaves like she's shrugging them off very late at night and a drunk student sees her. He'll probably think he's imagining things and Ying Chun will find out how these kids don't go to bed early!XD
Hee! I like that! ♥