The Art of Dialogue and the kitchen knife scene

[china_shop]

I was watching a YouTube video about how to write snappy dialogue (banter) by heyjameshurst. The creator used examples from The Princess Bride, The Empire Strikes Back, His Girl Friday, and The West Wing to illustrate that good dialogue is like a tennis match, a playful competition, and in each volley the tension escalates to "a sudden, sharp reveal of truth."

Afterwards, I was thinking about it in terms of Guardian, and the first scene that came to mind was the kitchen knife scene. Wow, this is a stellar example of what the video talked about! It's dynamic because every line fires back in a way that is difficult for the other person to respond to. (Often they're reacting to the subtext -- or actually, what they perceive the other's subtext to be -- rather than the words, and sometimes slightly at cross-purposes, so lines that could be non-sequiturs feel seamless.) And the truth is forced out of them. It's so impressive!

ZYL: I woke up because I was hungry.
SW: *turns and drops the knife*
ZYL: *strides over and grabs his wrist* Don't you think of lying to me. What did you do in order to heal my eyes?
SW: *starts to leave*
ZYL: You used the Longevity Dial.
SW: *stops*
ZYL: *moves to his side* You shared your life force with mine. You used your power to neutralize the corrosion of my body. Am I right?
SW: My... My... My body's energy structure has suffered a severe blow. I need to exchange all my energy.
ZYL: It must hurt a lot.
SW: *ghastly smile* Fortunately... Fortunately, I'm used to getting injured.
ZYL: I do not deserve what you are doing for me.
SW: You're worth it.
ZYL: *explodes* Then, what do you want me to do? Be indebted to you? To bow to you? You are not immortal! Why should I so casually owe you a life?
SW: This life is what I'm returning to you.
ZYL: ??????
SW: You should rest soon.

There are so many truths here!! <3 <3 <3

Thinking about it also made me realise something about Shen Wei's initially trying to leave and his "Fortunately, I'm used to getting injured" line, which I will explain in six screencaps:













Newsflash, Shen Wei: Zhao Yunlan's tactics are no more reassuring or less infuriating when you try them.

Comments

[china_shop]

Surprising no one, I've been thinking about this more. I'm pretty sure I'm an outlier in the fandom because I don't find Shen Wei's reaction particularly sad or upsetting. (I keep framing it as upsetting because I know it is for a lot of people, and definitely for ZYL.) To me, the smile and the words are separate things which unfortunately overlap, and I think it's the overlap that bothers most people the most?

So for me, the smile is "I'm glad I could heal your eyes, I would have done anything to heal you, and I have zero regrets" -- just amped up to be more reassuring (lol). And the "fortunately I'm used to getting injured" is "I'm strong, I can handle it, I'll get through this." (Which is just practical, right? He's like someone who's just donated a kidney to save a relative... except he did it possibly unintentionally and by stealth.)

ZYL wants his eyes to have been healed at no cost to anyone, but that was never going to happen (has he MET the Hallows?), and I personally would much rather see Shen Wei suffering here than Da Qing or Xiao Guo or even some random innocent someone who couldn't handle it. (Sorry, everyone! Does this make me a terrible person?)

And oh, maybe part of the reason ZYL is so upset is that deep down he is accepting it. He doesn't ask, "Is there a way to undo it? Come on, we're reversing the damage and blinding me again." (Cf the reverse healing in Dr Feng's clinic.) He accepts Shen Wei's gift-sacrifice, and that's the part that hurts him the most?

[trobadora]

Surprising no one, I've been thinking about this more. I'm pretty sure I'm an outlier in the fandom because I don't find Shen Wei's reaction particularly sad or upsetting.

Hmmm, it doesn't make me sad or upset, but I still think it's sad and upsetting, if that makes any sense? Not because of either the smile or the words or the overlap, precisely, but because no matter how well he knows Zhao Yunlan, he still thinks any of this can be reassuring to him, and it's just not.

But you're making me wonder whether any of us are actually talking about the same thing that's sad/upsetting/not reassuring to either us or to Zhao Yunlan ... *g*

So for me, the smile is "I'm glad I could heal your eyes, I would have done anything to heal you, and I have zero regrets" -- just amped up to be more reassuring (lol). And the "fortunately I'm used to getting injured" is "I'm strong, I can handle it, I'll get through this." (Which is just practical, right? He's like someone who's just donated a kidney to save a relative... except he did it possibly unintentionally and by stealth.)

100% agreed on all of this, that's exactly how I interpret it too.

(Sorry, everyone! Does this make me a terrible person?)

LOL, no. Again I'm entirely with you - Shen Wei can handle it, and I like that about him! If the narrative didn't give him these chances to show he can handle stuff like this, he wouldn't be my favourite character the way he is. *g*

(Lots of people are into whump and/or h/c because they like seeing people broken down or broken open, but that's the opposite of what I like - I like whump when it's all about showing off someone's resilience and endurance under tough circumstances, you know? THAT is what I love.)

But just because I think SW is right, dosen't mean it's reassuring, because there's nothing reassuring about having been hurt/injured often enough that you're used to it, even if you CAN handle it perfectly fine. And that's sad in general because of what it says about the life he's lead, you know? And it's upsetting to Zhao Yunlan in particular because he (of course!) wants them to be good to and for each other, and here he is just another item in the long list of things that have hurt Shen Wei. Which is the absolute last thing he wants to be!

And oh, maybe part of the reason ZYL is so upset is that deep down he is accepting it. He doesn't ask, "Is there a way to undo it? Come on, we're reversing the damage and blinding me again." (Cf the reverse healing in Dr Feng's clinic.) He accepts Shen Wei's gift-sacrifice, and that's the part that hurts him the most?

Huh, yeah, that's a good thought - I don't think it's the only think but that has to be part of it, that he's been given this gift-sacrifice (great term) and he can't/won't turn it down, and there's no way to pay it back (not that SW would want that), and what does that make him? What does that mean for them? That has to be part of why he's lashing out at SW and (rhetorically) asking what he's expecting in return.

[china_shop]

But just because I think SW is right, dosen't mean it's reassuring, because there's nothing reassuring about having been hurt/injured often enough that you're used to it, even if you CAN handle it perfectly fine.

Idk, I do find that reassuring. Getting hurt in the line of duty is something that happens. SW has healing powers. (We see that with the Shadow Man.) I don't think "avoidance of necessary suffering" is a priority for either of them, and that's okay? He has plenty of good things in his life too -- all the flavours, just like Kunlun promised him!

and there's no way to pay it back (not that SW would want that), and what does that make him? What does that mean for them? That has to be part of why he's lashing out at SW and (rhetorically) asking what he's expecting in return.

Yes! He's like "I don't understand what our relationship is to you, and YOU WON'T TELL ME!"

OT, but I'm always very aware during "This life is what I'm returning to you" of the differential between the personal costs of "shot some bad guys from a safe distant position" and "actual energy exchange that is burning through his energy structure" -- so I have to read the "life" as about more than just the narrow definition of helping SW survive that first YOHE battle. I think the "life" ZYL gave SW was hope-at-a-time-of-extreme-hopelessness and connection and love and fighting-at-his-side. And SW in return is giving ZYL self-care and his sight back and connection and love and fighting-at-his-side.

ETA: that he's been given this gift-sacrifice (great term) and he can't/won't turn it down, and there's no way to pay it back (not that SW would want that), and what does that make him?

And also: his literal title is Guardian. He is supposed to be the one protecting people!!

[trobadora]

Idk, I do find that reassuring. Getting hurt in the line of duty is something that happens. SW has healing powers. (We see that with the Shadow Man.) I don't think "avoidance of necessary suffering" is a priority for either of them, and that's okay?

I agree with everything you say, except that I don't think it's reassuring. Possibly we mean different things by "reassuring"? LOL. I mean, I just don't think the existence of such a thing as "necessary suffering" is reassuring in general. It's a fact, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck, even if it's happened before, will happen again, and isn't that big of a deal in the larger scheme of things. And it's no great comfort for anyone (ZYL) who's watching someone they love who's suffering, either.

(Aside: also, SW isn't saying "I'm going to be fine" - if he did, that would probably be a bit more reassuring for ZYL! He's saying, "I can handle this", which he can - but handling this, here, involves a contingency plan where he turns himself into a bomb, and so he's not promising to be fine.)

I think the "life" ZYL gave SW was hope-at-a-time-of-extreme-hopelessness and connection and love and fighting-at-his-side. And SW in return is giving ZYL self-care and his sight back and connection and love and fighting-at-his-side.

Yes! ♥ ♥ ♥

[facethestrange]

"I mean, I just don't think the existence of such a thing as "necessary suffering" is reassuring in general. It's a fact, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck, even if it's happened before, will happen again, and isn't that big of a deal in the larger scheme of things. And it's no great comfort for anyone (ZYL) who's watching someone they love who's suffering, either."

Yeah, ITA on all of this, I couldn't have said better myself.

ETA: Damn, I just continue having extra feelings and thoughts when I think I'm finished. xD

"Aside: also, SW isn't saying "I'm going to be fine" - if he did, that would probably be a bit more reassuring for ZYL! He's saying, "I can handle this", which he can - but handling this, here, involves a contingency plan where he turns himself into a bomb, and so he's not promising to be fine."

I find this lack of promise both worse (because he can't promise to be fine) and better (because it means that he means everything else, it's not just empty words).

[trobadora]

♥ ♥ ♥

I find this lack of promise both worse (because he can't promise to be fine) and better (because it means that he means everything else, it's not just empty words).

YESSSSSS, 100% this! He's not giving fake reassurances; what he says, he fully means.

[china_shop]

From further upthread:
And it's upsetting to Zhao Yunlan in particular because he (of course!) wants them to be good to and for each other, and here he is just another item in the long list of things that have hurt Shen Wei. Which is the absolute last thing he wants to be!

I'm not sure about the "wants them to be good to and for each other" at this stage? I think it's more that ZYL wants to be free to sacrifice himself, but it pushes all his childhood-trauma buttons if anyone else does the same, and especially someone as important to him as Shen Wei.

Possibly we mean different things by "reassuring"? LOL.

Ha, it seems like we are! I didn't mean comforting; I was talking about reassurance in the "will be fine" sense (which is actually false reassurance, but neither ZYL nor the first-time viewer knows that yet). I think SW's saying, "Fortunately, I'm used to being injured," strongly implies that this is like those other injuries, ie, not permanent or debilitating in anything more than the short-term. And that's reassuring to me, because it makes me feel like SW is a) strong enough, and b) later, when we find he hasn't healed himself, that was a choice.

But you're right, that's not the same as comforting. Nothing is going to comfort ZYL in this moment; he's inadvertently caused Shen Wei suffering, and there's nothing he can do except offer sympathy, which is not enough. And Shen Wei's ghastly smile is even rejecting that much -- he doesn't want sympathy or comfort. His first instinct was to leave. He won't let ZYL share this, which makes it worse. (Versus the bench scene, where Shen Wei asks for what he wants (to rest in the sun) and lets ZYL stay with him, and they share the comfort together.)

I mean, I just don't think the existence of such a thing as "necessary suffering" is reassuring in general.

True! I should have put a paragraph break before that sentence, or parentheses or something. My bad!

[trobadora]

I'm not sure about the "wants them to be good to and for each other" at this stage? I think it's more that ZYL wants to be free to sacrifice himself, but it pushes all his childhood-trauma buttons if anyone else does the same, and especially someone as important to him as Shen Wei.

No, at this point I think he's definitely there - he just told his father about SW being genuinely good to him, and you can't tell me he doesn't want to reciprocate. Also, IMO at this point in time he's not thinking in terms of self-sacrifice - he still thinks they can win this. I don't think he thinks the situation will get so dire as to require a sacrifice until after he gets slapped in the face with the cost to SW; before that, he thinks the Sundial exchange was an unqualified win, and why shouldn't they have another?

I was talking about reassurance in the "will be fine" sense

Oh, right! Though like I said, SW is (IMO very deliberately) not saying he'll be fine, only that he can handle it.

But I agree that it matters IMMENSELY that SW is strong enough, and that what he ultimately does with the white energy is his choice, because he can not only handle it, but make it into an opportunity he wouldn't otherwise have had. Which I love! A lot! And actually, you know, that part I find immensely reassuring myself, so I guess I'm talking myself round to your POV now, LOL.

And Shen Wei's ghastly smile is even rejecting that much -- he doesn't want sympathy or comfort.

Yes, very good point! ZYL tries to offer sympathy with "it must hurt a lot", but SW essentially waves that off with that smile and the "used to it" line.

[facethestrange]

"He has plenty of good things in his life too -- all the flavours, just like Kunlun promised him!"

Aw, I love this! ♡ (I don't need to like that the bad things are happening to like this. :D) And obviously Kunlun was right because he has already seen it, which only makes it even better to me.

"I think the "life" ZYL gave SW was hope-at-a-time-of-extreme-hopelessness and connection and love and fighting-at-his-side. And SW in return is giving ZYL self-care and his sight back and connection and love and fighting-at-his-side."

♡♡♡ ITA! I never even really considered the literal aspect of it, I just skipped right to this.

[trobadora]

And obviously Kunlun was right because he has already seen it, which only makes it even better to me.

EXCELLENT point. This is my absolute favourite thing about Guardian, the way things loop around between them and they each are a crucial part of what lets the other become the person they know.

[facethestrange]

Yessss. ♡♡♡ I feel like it must be one of the most personal time loops EVER, and it's so beautiful how them just existing and learning from each other is the thing that makes it work, it doesn't need anything else. :)

[china_shop]

And obviously Kunlun was right because he has already seen it, which only makes it even better to me.

Yes, great point! Kunlun!ZYL is super convincing in that moment because he's speaking from a place of knowledge and truth -- it's not just empty platitudes. And that's a lot of what gives SW the hope and fortitude to go on. *hearts and hearts*

♡♡♡ ITA! I never even really considered the literal aspect of it, I just skipped right to this.

Heh, I always get tripped in YOHE because young!SW feels indebted so quickly, just from ZYL helping in that battle. He immediately starts calling ZYL "benefactor" and promising to repay him (which ZYL deflects with "take off your mask and smile" -- and omg, should we draw a line from that to SW's ghastly smile in this scene?? /o\ /o\ /o\). But I think over the years since, SW has had time to reflect and his perspective would have deepened, you know?

[trobadora]

and omg, should we draw a line from that to SW's ghastly smile in this scene?? /o\ /o\ /o\

OUCH OUCH OUCH OUCH OUCH!!!!!

[facethestrange]

"But just because I think SW is right, dosen't mean it's reassuring, because there's nothing reassuring about having been hurt/injured often enough that you're used to it, even if you CAN handle it perfectly fine. And that's sad in general because of what it says about the life he's lead, you know? And it's upsetting to Zhao Yunlan in particular because he (of course!) wants them to be good to and for each other, and here he is just another item in the long list of things that have hurt Shen Wei. Which is the absolute last thing he wants to be!"

Omg, yes, THIS, all of this, 100%. ♡♡♡

ETA: This is a really thinky post, so I guess just add things as I think of them, lol.

"But you're making me wonder whether any of us are actually talking about the same thing that's sad/upsetting/not reassuring to either us or to Zhao Yunlan ... *g*"

Yeah, I don't think so. :D But also in my experience no one ever does. Like, even when people's opinions seem to completely overlap, if you dig deep enough you'll find all kinds of differences, especially in why they hold the opinion, but also in which parts of it are the important ones, and probably in a million other ways. I think that's really cool. :D

[trobadora]

This is a really thinky post, so I guess just add things as I think of them, lol.

♥ ♥ ♥

It's definitely very cool, and always fascinating to dig into and find out where we're all at with our individual views. :D

[china_shop]

But also in my experience no one ever does. Like, even when people's opinions seem to completely overlap, if you dig deep enough you'll find all kinds of differences, especially in why they hold the opinion, but also in which parts of it are the important ones, and probably in a million other ways. I think that's really cool. :D

Oh, yes, so cool!

*thinks more* I think... part of me is resisting (and this may be why I don't really get h/c generally) the imposition of sympathy and concern. I feel like "I'm insisting that this is worse than you will admit" only makes the hurt person feel worse and weakens their inner defences (which might be all that's holding them together!). To me, in most instances (but not all!) the kind and supportive thing is to take one's cues from the hurt person about how much comfort they actually want.

This may not be one of those instances! And obviously, the closer you are to the hurt person, the more it gets complicated by your own perfectly valid feelings about the situation. But in general, ZYL's fraught reaction does make the whole thing worse for SW (and ZYL is too worked up to think about that) -- though it does lead to what makes it better for SW in the moment: his own reiteration of his truths, "You're worth it," and "This life is what I'm returning to you." Idk.

[trobadora]

I feel like "I'm insisting that this is worse than you will admit" only makes the hurt person feel worse and weakens their inner defences (which might be all that's holding them together!). To me, in most instances (but not all!) the kind and supportive thing is to take one's cues from the hurt person about how much comfort they actually want.

I entirely agree with this! Though for me that has nothing to do with how I, the reader feel about the characters and their pain. And the characters are allowed to have non-ideal reactions to things, too, you know?

(It hadn't even occurred to me to think of this in terms of h/c, tbh! Fascinating.)

But in general, ZYL's fraught reaction does make the whole thing worse for SW

Yes, 100% agreed on that, too! One of those non-ideal reactions, but he wouldn't be ZYL if he didn't react that way in that moment.

[facethestrange]

"I feel like "I'm insisting that this is worse than you will admit" only makes the hurt person feel worse and weakens their inner defences (which might be all that's holding them together!). To me, in most instances (but not all!) the kind and supportive thing is to take one's cues from the hurt person about how much comfort they actually want."

Hmm, that's what Shen Wei does too, a lot, including in these scenes - Zhao Yunlan says he's not hurt, Shen Wei treats him like he is (because he is). I'd say it's only fair if they both do it to each other. :P

[facethestrange]

"So for me, the smile is "I'm glad I could heal your eyes, I would have done anything to heal you, and I have zero regrets" -- just amped up to be more reassuring (lol). And the "fortunately I'm used to getting injured" is "I'm strong, I can handle it, I'll get through this." (Which is just practical, right? He's like someone who's just donated a kidney to save a relative... except he did it possibly unintentionally and by stealth.)"

ITA, and to me it's all factually right, but emotionally not right, lol. Like, 'that's the right thing to do in this situation' vs. 'it's not fair to be in this situation to begin with' (which happens to these characters a lot and I've talked about it before re: the Lantern, lol). And I feel like feeling that it's unfair can coexist with the fact that the situation exists and something has to be done about it, and doing something else about it would be even worse.

"And oh, maybe part of the reason ZYL is so upset is that deep down he is accepting it. He doesn't ask, "Is there a way to undo it? Come on, we're reversing the damage and blinding me again." (Cf the reverse healing in Dr Feng's clinic.) He accepts Shen Wei's gift-sacrifice, and that's the part that hurts him the most?"

Oh wow, that's a fantastic point! *even more OUCH (for me, lol)*

ETA: "ZYL wants his eyes to have been healed at no cost to anyone, but that was never going to happen (has he MET the Hallows?), and I personally would much rather see Shen Wei suffering here than Da Qing or Xiao Guo or even some random innocent someone who couldn't handle it."

Isn't the suffering a result of the difference between the energies though? What would have happened if a Haixingren shared their energy? Like, would ZYL's eyes still get healed at all (since he was originally harmed by dark energy, does he need it to reverse it)? And if so, would the healer be harmed at all, and how? (I still do think the Dial takes a part of your lifespan in exchange, but also it may only be when you're actually bringing someone back from the dead.)

[trobadora]

to me it's all factually right, but emotionally not right, lol. Like, 'that's the right thing to do in this situation' vs. 'it's not fair to be in this situation to begin with'

Ha, yes, this! You put that so succinctly. :D

My headcanon is that the energy exchange only works to cure ZYL is because SW has black energy, yeah; if it were a mundane injury, that wouldn't matter, but it's due to black energy corruption. And they're swapping corruption, aren't they? Instead of ZYL having black energy corruption, now SW has white energy corruption - there's an equivalence there, which to me fits with what the Sundial does.

[facethestrange]

"My headcanon is that the energy exchange only works to cure ZYL is because SW has black energy, yeah; if it were a mundane injury, that wouldn't matter, but it's due to black energy corruption. And they're swapping corruption, aren't they? Instead of ZYL having black energy corruption, now SW has white energy corruption - there's an equivalence there, which to me fits with what the Sundial does."

Yeah, I think so too, this explanation makes the most sense to me. Which means that no one other than Shen Wei could have done it at all even if they wanted to, which kinda puts it in a very different context. (But it's still a good thing that the only person who can do it is also someone who can handle it.)

[trobadora]

100% agreed with all of this!

[china_shop]

And I feel like feeling that it's unfair can coexist with the fact that the situation exists and something has to be done about it, and doing something else about it would be even worse.

Yes, absolutely! But is there anything to be gained by dwelling on the unfairness? Does it make either of them feel better? And I guess the point of contention in this scene is that Shen Wei is insisting is is fair and right. That ZYL is worth it, and it's a completely reasonable repayment of a debt. (And then I think of ZYL's loving smile in YOHE when he says, "You've already repaid it" and I wonder what he's thinking about it then.)

Isn't the suffering a result of the difference between the energies though? What would have happened if a Haixingren shared their energy?

Oh, ha, I wasn't even thinking about how the Hallows work. I think narratively, there had to be a cost. (That's something the drama "fixed" from the novel.) Aside from anything else, if everything has an easy fix, then what's to stop ZYL doing ever more Incredibly Reckless Things and giving SW a heart attack. ;-p

[facethestrange]

"But is there anything to be gained by dwelling on the unfairness? Does it make either of them feel better?"

That's just mostly my reasoning for what I find upsetting, not necessarily theirs. :)

"And I guess the point of contention in this scene is that Shen Wei is insisting is is fair and right. That ZYL is worth it, and it's a completely reasonable repayment of a debt."

I do agree that once they're in this situation, this is pretty fair and right. :) The unfair part (to me) is being in this situation.

"And then I think of ZYL's loving smile in YOHE when he says, "You've already repaid it" and I wonder what he's thinking about it then."

♡♡♡ And it's "many times over", so it's not just about this, it's about everything.

"I think narratively, there had to be a cost. (That's something the drama "fixed" from the novel.)"

Oooh, on one hand, ZYL's blindness in the novel is just fixed, on the other hand the novel is the one with the extremely clear rule that the Dial takes a part of your lifespan. So putting these two things together is again the writers creating their own neat and intricate puzzle, isn't it. :D

[china_shop]

That's just mostly my reasoning for what I find upsetting, not necessarily theirs. :)

Ah, right. Sorry! There's a lot of upsettingness to go around, and a lot of perspectives. :-)

The unfair part (to me) is being in this situation.

*nodnod* I wonder how much our reactions to it are affected by feelings about the ending. Because one of the reasons it works so well for me is SW turning his weakness and suffering into a weapon. That he maintains his agency.

♡♡♡ And it's "many times over", so it's not just about this, it's about everything.

That's true! Good point. That's more about their whole ~thing~. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

Oooh, on one hand, ZYL's blindness in the novel is just fixed, on the other hand the novel is the one with the extremely clear rule that the Dial takes a part of your lifespan. So putting these two things together is again the writers creating their own neat and intricate puzzle, isn't it. :D

Can you say a little more about that? I'm having trouble getting my head around what you mean. (This is making me think, if we import novel rules about the Hallows, that post Dial-exchange(s), Shen Wei and ZYL (and CSZ and GCC) are both/all extremely long-lived. :D