Scene discussion: Shen Wei and Zhu Hong talk about love (episode 19)

[trobadora]

Location: episode 19, 18:42 - 20:17

I did the scene following from this one last round (Shen Wei and Zhu Hong talk to Fourth Uncle), and it made me want to look at this one more closely!

Context:

Lao-Chu, Xiao-Guo and Ye Huo have been kidnapped by Zhu Jiu. The SID make a plan to capture Zhu Jiu, but need to keep Ya Qing out of the way so she can't rescue him when they cut the lights and stop him from teleporting away. Shen Wei says he'll go, but he needs to borrow Zhu Hong.



Our scene:

Shen Wei and Zhu Hong are walking slowly on a paved path through a park. Zhu Hong ducks her headn and does an an embarrassed huff/smile combination. Shen Wei looks at her and asks her what's wrong.



Shen Wei: 怎么了？
What is it?

Zhu Hong sighs. Shen Wei watches attentively as she speaks.

Zhu Hong: 今天是这段时间以来赵云澜给我的第一个任务。没想到是跟你一起。
This case today is the first in a while that Zhao Yunlan assigned me to. I didn't expect it would be with you.

At that last bit, Shen Wei lets out a small huff himself, and puts his hands in his coat pockets, turning away from her. She glances at him, measuring his reaction, and looks down again.

Zhu Hong: 你是不是觉得我特别可笑？
You must think I'm very ridiculous.



Shen Wei hesitates for a moment, then looks at her.

Shen Wei: 没有啊。
I don't.

Zhu Hong: 别装了。 现在是个人都看得出来我喜欢赵云澜。真不知道那家伙怎么想的，都表现得这么明显了，他还天天装傻充愣。
Stop pretending. By now everyone can see I like Zhao Yunlan. I really don't know what that guy is thinking. It's all so obvious, and he still plays dumb every day.

They walk side by side during this, not looking at each other. Only when she says Zhao Yunlan is playing dumb does Shen Wei look at her, and then turn away again. He opens his mouth, then stops walking and finally starts talking. His hands are still in his pockets!

Shen Wei: 爱情关系上面的事情我不太懂。
I don't know much about matters of love.



Zhu Hong is turned towards him, but not quite looking straight at him here. He takes his hands out of his pockets and turns towards her. She looks less and less directly at him as he speaks (and looks a bit like she's about to cry). He's also not quite looking at her directly.

Shen Wei: 但是从生物工程上面来说，少则三天，多则三年，多巴胺和去甲肾上腺素就会停止分泌。或许到时候你对他就没什么感觉了。
But from the perspective of bioengineering, within three days at least, or three years at most, the secretion of dopamine and norepinephrine will stop. Maybe when that time comes, you won't have feelings for him any more.



Zhu Hong: 长则三年，真够短的。
At most 3 years. Really short.

She huffs a small laugh just before "Really short". She's still not looking at him, and now he looks away as well, seemingly lost in thought.

Zhu Hong: 真不知道这个世界上有什么感情是长长久久不会变的。
I really don't know if there are feelings in this world that can last and won't change.

Now she turns to look at him directly:

Zhu Hong: 友情。
Friendship.

At this (one word that does a lot of work here in terms of (im)plausible deniability!), Shen Wei meets her eyes.



Zhu Hong: 像你跟赵云澜这样共患难的。
Like you and Zhao Yunlan, going through thick and thin together.

He looks down with a smile, lets out a breath, then looks up at her again.

Shen Wei: 也许吧。
Maybe.



She adjusts the strap of her handbag and starts walking, considerably more energetically than before. Shen Wei stays standing there for another moment before he looks in the direction she's gone, and then follows after her.


Thoughts/questions:

• Like I said last time, it's important to remember that Zhu Hong doesn't yet know who Shen Wei really is. He's close to Zhao Yunlan, and he's been heavily involved with the SID and its cases, has even been to Dixing with Zhao Yunlan - but even so, there's no way Zhu Hong could have foreseen him taking such a lead role in their plan to capture Zhu Jiu, even going to meet the Snake Tribe leader to convince him to help the SID. Can't blame Zhu Hong for being taken aback that she's being assigned to work with him!


• What strikes me the most about this scene is the way it parallels and contrasts Shen Wei's relationship with Zhao Yunlan vs. Zhu Hong's feelings for Zhao Yunlan. Despite that one mention of "friendship", the way Zhu Hong reacts to Shen Wei is very much as to a love rival, and she knows there's no competition - Shen Wei already has what she always hoped she might one day, and she sees that clearly. I really admire the way the drama manages to use Zhu Hong's feelings not to set up a love triangle, but to put a spotlight on the central pairing even though censorship demands it remain unspoken. (And I especially admire that they manage this without turning Zhu Hong into a figure of ridicule, even though she herself feels that way here.)


• Speaking of Zhu Hong feeling ridiculous - her reaction to this is not to hide, but to confront it head-on, and to confront Shen Wei with it. Why do you think she makes that choice to speak to Shen Wei here? She wants to be seen, yes - but what does she expect from him? She has seen him less than kind - in the interrogation room scene in episode 4, he very quickly and expertly hit her sore spots, and at the time she stormed out. So perhaps she has reason to worry, and wants to get it over with, force the issue and see how he reacts. What do you think she's hoping to get out of bringing this up to him now? Is it better that she does (in-universe, where concerns of parallels and censorship don't apply), or would it have been better if she hadn't?


• It's really striking how much they both don't look at each other during all of this, sometimes just awkwardly walking side by side, sometimes actively looking away, sometimes just not quite meeting the other's eyes. This is an uncomfortable conversation for both of them! Actually, Shen Wei seems most comfortable when he takes refuge in a bioengineering lecture. *g*


• Regarding said lecture, I know nothing about bioengineering (or indeed biochemistry), but this fits at least with what pop science I've read around falling in love and lovesickness - that initial rush. (You get it, too, when you fall in love with a new fandom! Eventually it mellows out even if you're still in love.) You could say it's a bit insulting that he suggests her feelings might just go away once the initial rush has passed - that there's nothing but that - but Zhu Hong did put him on the spot by bringing this up to him. He's trying to deal with the awkwardness, and deflecting because he really didn't sign up for talking to someone else about their unrequited feelings for his boyfriend, taking refuge in the clinical. Even so, he's also trying to be kind about it, trying to make her feel better without getting more deeply into this "talk about Zhu Hong's feelings" thing he doesn't actually want to do. And, as china_shop said last time, he's probably hoping her feelings are just a crush that will fade soon. *g*
  
  Do you think he handles it well? What else could/should he have said?


• Why does Shen Wei claim not to know much about love? He could have delivered all the rest of his speech without that, so why that little bit of deflection? To me it feels like he's trying to distance himself from the topic - he really doesn't want to talk about his own feelings to Zhu Hong (or anyone, really).


• Does Zhu Hong really not understand why Zhao Yunlan pretends not to notice her feelings? In the end it will turn out that putting it all out into the open and acknowledging it is what allows them to move forward with their friendship, and it's clear that she wants to have her feelings acknowledged even if he can't reciprocate, but still - his reaction is pretty much what you'd expect from him, especially up to this point in time.


• What is Shen Wei thinking about, there at the end when he's lost in thought as she walks ahead? The question of whether there's "forever" for him and Zhao Yunlan, or whether it will all be over the moment Zhao Yunlan travels to the past and becomes Kunlun? The hope that it will last, that Zhao Yunlan will return to him?

Comments

[china_shop]

Oooh, awesome choice of scene, and really great post as always! Yay!! :D :D :D

Can't blame Zhu Hong for being taken aback that she's being assigned to work with him!

Everything you say about her not knowing Shen Wei's full identity is true, but I still feel like she says that primarily because she sees Shen Wei as a romantic rival. That's the context she's using to start this conversation, you know?

I really admire the way the drama manages to use Zhu Hong's feelings not to set up a love triangle, but to put a spotlight on the central pairing even though censorship demands it remain unspoken. (And I especially admire that they manage this without turning Zhu Hong into a figure of ridicule, even though she herself feels that way here.)

Yesss! I love both of those things so much, too!

Speaking of Zhu Hong feeling ridiculous - her reaction to this is not to hide, but to confront it head-on, and to confront Shen Wei with it. Why do you think she makes that choice to speak to Shen Wei here?

I wonder if she's testing his feelings for ZYL? After all, she knows how ZYL feels, but Shen Wei does play things close to the chest, so maybe she's not sure if ZYL's feelings are requited (or requited in the same romantic way)? And she's hoping that clarifying that will either bring her closure or give her hope, depending on how things go?

that initial rush. (You get it, too, when you fall in love with a new fandom! Eventually it mellows out even if you're still in love.)

Ha! So true!

Even so, he's also trying to be kind about it, trying to make her feel better without getting more deeply into this "talk about Zhu Hong's feelings" thing he doesn't actually want to do.

Yes -- I agree he doesn't want to talk about his own feelings here. We don't know how far along his relationship with ZYL is, at this stage, and I doubt he'd want to confide anything to her that isn't settled with ZYL, you know? (Or if they are together, flaunt his own happiness.) I think he wants to respect her feelings without encouraging them; after all, she has excellent taste!

Do you think he handles it well? What else could/should he have said?

I think he does. He puts distance between them by retreating into science mode, and he doesn't try to hide his interest in ZYL, but at the same time, he doesn't express it openly until she raises it. I think his smile at her description of his bond with ZYL is an admission/confession of his feelings, and that's why she ends the conversation and walks off.

Why does Shen Wei claim not to know much about love?

I think you're right that he doesn't want to talk about his feelings, and also maybe there's an element of "I'm not the right person to give advice in this area" disclaimer? I mean, his romantic experience is limited to one person in 10k years, with bonus time loop. It's not a normal dating history, by any metric! *g*

Does Zhu Hong really not understand why Zhao Yunlan pretends not to notice her feelings?

I think there are multiple possible interpretations of his behaviour, and she needs to eliminate the more hopeful explanations before she can 100% reconcile herself to rejection. Like, it's ZYL: he could care for her but be refusing to admit it for her own good, out of misguided chivalry. Or he could be hoping she'll give up and go away. Or he could want her to stick around but be being careless and unwilling to deal with her feelings. And the truth is somewhere in the middle, I think -- he cares about her platonically and won't admit it because he's scared of hurting her (both by rejecting her romantically and by entangling her deeper in his messy unworthy life), plus it's a delicate topic that's a PITA to handle -- so he's sending all these mixed messages, leaving her unable to get closure.

What is Shen Wei thinking about, there at the end when he's lost in thought as she walks ahead?

I have kind of a Schrödinger's cat reaction, depending on the status of his relationship with ZYL at this point, you know? If they're not together yet, he might be considering what kind of messages ZYL has been taking from his behaviour so far, wondering whether it's time to take an unambiguous step closer? If they are together, maybe having feelings about what the rest of the SID think about it, how he and ZYL appear to the team, and if he's said the right thing to Zhu Hong just now? Reflecting on how one's happiness can hurt others, even unintentionally?

As far as the possibility of "forever" goes, I think he's probably more worried about the immediate dangers -- Zhu Jiu and Ye Zun -- than the time travel possibilities that are out of his hands. (I also think it's a really interesting coincidence that Zhu Hong is focused on the possible longevity of love, given the epic time span of Shen Wei's feelings, but I guess he started that with the biology lesson... :-)

Thanks again for such a great write-up and the chance to examine this scene in detail. :D

[trobadora]

Everything you say about her not knowing Shen Wei's full identity is true, but I still feel like she says that primarily because she sees Shen Wei as a romantic rival. That's the context she's using to start this conversation, you know?

Yes, of course! She's having feelings about being assigned to work with him because he's the one Zhao Yunlan is into, but also, she's justifiably surprised by this assignment because his role in it is unusual and not something she could have foreseen. So I feel that contributes to her reaction and her choices here, being confronted with her "rival" in circumstances she wasn't prepared for.

I wonder if she's testing his feelings for ZYL? After all, she knows how ZYL feels, but Shen Wei does play things close to the chest, so maybe she's not sure if ZYL's feelings are requited (or requited in the same romantic way)? And she's hoping that clarifying that will either bring her closure or give her hope, depending on how things go?

Idk, I think these two are sufficiently weird about each other that she should have a good idea about how serious this is. And she does refer to it later, with the whole "can feelings last" part. My feeling is that even if she might tell herself she's testing him, she's actually more like worrying a wound, if that makes sense.

Yes -- I agree he doesn't want to talk about his own feelings here. We don't know how far along his relationship with ZYL is, at this stage, and I doubt he'd want to confide anything to her that isn't settled with ZYL, you know? (Or if they are together, flaunt his own happiness.)

100% agreed - no matter what the state of his relationship with Zhao Yunlan at this point, he won't want to talk about it! In part because he's private and it's personal; in part because it's complicated (even if they are together by this point, which I personally don't think given the "I'm not made for love" conversation between ZYL and SW later, it's still complicated!) and in part because no matter what, it's not going to help Zhu Hong. Either she's already lost and they're not even together yet, or they went from 0 to full-on together in what must feel like no time at all to her, compared to the time she's spent at the SID ...

I think he wants to respect her feelings without encouraging them; after all, she has excellent taste!

Ha, yes, good point! She does! *g*

I think he does. He puts distance between them by retreating into science mode, and he doesn't try to hide his interest in ZYL, but at the same time, he doesn't express it openly until she raises it. I think his smile at her description of his bond with ZYL is an admission/confession of his feelings, and that's why she ends the conversation and walks off.

Yeah, that makes sense! And his smile at that point is so fond and genuine, it's not like she can miss it. *g*

I mean, his romantic experience is limited to one person in 10k years, with bonus time loop. It's not a normal dating history, by any metric! *g*

Too, too true!

Like, it's ZYL: he could care for her but be refusing to admit it for her own good, out of misguided chivalry.

I think if he was romantically interested in her, he might refuse to admit it but it would look very different. But then she has no way of knowing that because she's never seen him interested like this, until Shen Wei ...

Or he could be hoping she'll give up and go away. Or he could want her to stick around but be being careless and unwilling to deal with her feelings.

I guess what strikes me is that she's all "don't you think I'm totally ridiculous" to Shen Wei, but when it comes to Zhao Yunlan it's "WTF is he even thinking" and not "OMG he probably thinks I'm pathetic". And she's not wrong that neither of these two interpretations are quite true! He does care about her, and as you say, he's sending mixed messages because of that. But I wonder if it's mainly self-defence that she's not letting herself think in that direction with ZYL, but does with SW.

If they're not together yet, he might be considering what kind of messages ZYL has been taking from his behaviour so far, wondering whether it's time to take an unambiguous step closer? If they are together, maybe having feelings about what the rest of the SID think about it, how he and ZYL appear to the team, and if he's said the right thing to Zhu Hong just now? Reflecting on how one's happiness can hurt others, even unintentionally?

If they're not together, he's probably also thinking about that contrast - the way Zhu Hong perceives them as obviously a package deal by now, vs. the way nothing's actually resolved between them yet and he doesn't know when/how that will happen, or whehter (as you say) he should be taking that step now.

And if they are together, he might be thinking about how obvious they're being, and yeah, everyone's reactions and whether people knowing about them will be another complication, even as he doesn't want to hide their relationship ...

As far as the possibility of "forever" goes, I think he's probably more worried about the immediate dangers -- Zhu Jiu and Ye Zun -- than the time travel possibilities that are out of his hands.

Hm, personally I think he'd be more likely to worry about the time travel because that's entirely out of his hands, whereas he can do something about Zhu Jiu and Ye Zun and in fact they're in the middle of doing something about Zhu Jiu and therefore Ye Zun's plans right now ...

(I also think it's a really interesting coincidence that Zhu Hong is focused on the possible longevity of love, given the epic time span of Shen Wei's feelings, but I guess he started that with the biology lesson... :-)

Yeah, I think he brought that on himself with the "three days to three years" thing. *g*

[nnozomi]

Such a good scene, and an excellent writeup.

I really admire the way the drama manages to use Zhu Hong's feelings not to set up a love triangle, but to put a spotlight on the central pairing even though censorship demands it remain unspoken. (And I especially admire that they manage this without turning Zhu Hong into a figure of ridicule, even though she herself feels that way here.)
Yes, I admire Zhu Hong here, being very honest--as if for her it would be worse to have everyone/Shen Wei thinking it but not saying it than to go ahead and lay her feelings on the line, even if she's risking mockery or pity or whatever. (In terms of timing, she may simply figure she's not likely to be alone with Shen Wei very often and this is her chance.)

This is an uncomfortable conversation for both of them! Actually, Shen Wei seems most comfortable when he takes refuge in a bioengineering lecture. *g*
I always feel that Shen Wei is deliberately switching into advisor-with-tearful-undergraduate mode, for his own comfort and to add a little distance.

Why does Shen Wei claim not to know much about love? He could have delivered all the rest of his speech without that, so why that little bit of deflection? To me it feels like he's trying to distance himself from the topic - he really doesn't want to talk about his own feelings to Zhu Hong (or anyone, really).
I always thought that this was part of his distancing efforts along with the lecture, but now I'm wondering--maybe he is thinking about how strange and mysterious his own experience with Zhao Yunlan has been, and how little "sense" his feelings make in logical terms. (And more prosaically, there are a couple of moments here and there when he clearly wonders "how am I in love with this man," see also: Zhao Yunlan's refrigerator...)

Does Zhu Hong really not understand why Zhao Yunlan pretends not to notice her feelings?
I think whether he returns her feelings or not, what she wants is the acknowledgement, and maybe the emotional catharsis of having a big showdown with him, what she eventually gets later on, is it ep. 30? 31?. Sweeping it all under the rug means she's stuck feeling what she feels without being able either to get what she wants or to move on.

[autodach]

I think whether he returns her feelings or not, what she wants is the acknowledgement, and maybe the emotional catharsis of having a big showdown with him, what she eventually gets later on, is it ep. 30? 31?. Sweeping it all under the rug means she's stuck feeling what she feels without being able either to get what she wants or to move on.

I completely agree this is what she is looking for.
I wonder if it's her own personal trait or if there's a cultural differnce at play here. Do we know anything about romantic customs for Snake Yashou? Maybe they are just more blunt than Haixingren. In that case, she might genuinely not understand being let down gently.

[trobadora]

Oooh, I love the idea of cultural differences playing into this!

IIRC the only thing we know about Snake Yashou romance is the Snake guys who have a crush on Zhu Hong. Hmmmm ... *ponders*

[trobadora]

as if for her it would be worse to have everyone/Shen Wei thinking it but not saying it than to go ahead and lay her feelings on the line, even if she's risking mockery or pity or whatever

Yeah, she's very honest and very brave! And good point about her not being that likely to be alone with Shen Wei again soon ...

I always feel that Shen Wei is deliberately switching into advisor-with-tearful-undergraduate mode, for his own comfort and to add a little distance.

Oooh, yes, that's a great way of framing it!

maybe he is thinking about how strange and mysterious his own experience with Zhao Yunlan has been, and how little "sense" his feelings make in logical terms

Yeah, that would make sense too! His entire relationship with Kunlun/Zhao Yunlan is so fundamentally shaped by the time loop, what does he know about falling in love "normally" rather than with someone who already knows you and loves you? *g*

I think whether he returns her feelings or not, what she wants is the acknowledgement, and maybe the emotional catharsis of having a big showdown with him, what she eventually gets later on, is it ep. 30? 31?. Sweeping it all under the rug means she's stuck feeling what she feels without being able either to get what she wants or to move on.

Yeah, 100% agreed, and I love that she does get that acknowledgment eventually. Now that I think of it, this scene is a great set-up for that resolution, showing us what she needs! (It's episode 31, IIRC.)

[maggie33]

What strikes me the most about this scene is the way it parallels and contrasts Shen Wei's relationship with Zhao Yunlan vs. Zhu Hong's feelings for Zhao Yunlan. Despite that one mention of "friendship", the way Zhu Hong reacts to Shen Wei is very much as to a love rival, and she knows there's no competition - Shen Wei already has what she always hoped she might one day, and she sees that clearly. I really admire the way the drama manages to use Zhu Hong's feelings not to set up a love triangle, but to put a spotlight on the central pairing even though censorship demands it remain unspoken. (And I especially admire that they manage this without turning Zhu Hong into a figure of ridicule, even though she herself feels that way here.)

Yes to all this. And I wanted to say that I was very impressed with the way Guardian dealt with Zhu Hong's feelings. I was a bit apprehensive at first when I realized that Zhu Hong had feelings for Zhao Yunlan. I was afraid that she would be ridiculed or turned into a jealous harpy. She wasn't and she had an opportunity to come to terms with the fact that Zhao Yunlan would never return her feelings and get closure.

And I loved that they basically put equal sign between Zhu Hong's feelings and Shen Wei's feelings. You really can't read that scene any other way. :)

[trobadora]

I was afraid that she would be ridiculed or turned into a jealous harpy. She wasn't and she had an opportunity to come to terms with the fact that Zhao Yunlan would never return her feelings and get closure.

Yes, there are so many ways this whole scenario could have gone terribly wrong, but the script respects Zhu Hong enough to not do that, and I really love that. :D

The parallel is so great! They can't make Weilan explicitly romantic (no matter how undeniable the subtext is), but they use that parallel and Zhu Hong's feelings to make it as textual as they possibly can. :D

[elenothar]

Why does Shen Wei claim not to know much about love?

I think he honestly thinks he doesn't - or at least not the kind of knowing he could share with someone else (I think he's very used to teaching and academia as framework for sharing things, and there's an assumption there of, hmm, level of competency needed before one can speak of a subject authoritatively). He knows his own feelings of love well enough, but he has only one experience of it (in my reading anyway), and it's really not a replicable situation at all, messy and convoluted as his and Zhao Yunlan's timeline is. Also, I think he may be aware that from an objective ("scientific") point of view, his enduring love for Zhao Yunlan is perhaps not... entirely healthy/reasonable? There's a lot of baggage there, too, and while I don't think he has any regrets about it, I can't see him advising others to do what he did/is doing. And that's on top of not wanting Zhu Hong to hang onto her love/crush for personally selfish reasons, both because it's likely not comfortable for him to know/watch and because he knows it'll hurt Zhao Yunlan in the long run if it continues.

... Hmm, I'm not sure I phrased all that well, this bears further thought 😅

[trobadora]

This is a great comment with lots of great thoughts! ♥

I think he's very used to teaching and academia as framework for sharing things, and there's an assumption there of, hmm, level of competency needed before one can speak of a subject authoritatively

Ooooh, I hadn't thought of that before, but now that you say it it makes so much sense for Shen Wei! I'm totally adopting this as my personal headcanon now.

Also, I think he may be aware that from an objective ("scientific") point of view, his enduring love for Zhao Yunlan is perhaps not... entirely healthy/reasonable?

I don't think he would look at it as unhealthy from any point of view, but he may well think they're both incredibly lucky that it worked out so well, because there's nothing inherent in the circumstances that would necessarily be good for anyone else. (Just like their mutual stalking, which works out because they're both like that but would definitely be bad bad BAD under any other circumstances ...)

And that's on top of not wanting Zhu Hong to hang onto her love/crush for personally selfish reasons, both because it's likely not comfortable for him to know/watch and because he knows it'll hurt Zhao Yunlan in the long run if it continues.

Yeah, and it's not going to lead to anything good for Zhu Hong either. Because regardless of Shen Wei's personal thoughts about love and 10,000-year waiting and all that, Zhao Yunlan simply doesn't return Zhu Hong's feelings, and Shen Wei knows that ...