sid_guardian | Meta: narrative structure and raising the stakes in the Guardian drama

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Meta: narrative structure and raising the stakes in the Guardian drama

I've been listening to a lot of writing and narrative meta lately (mostly Writing Excuses podcast), and one of the things they discussed is what the middles of stories can do in terms of narratives. (Note: they generally focus on plotty stories.) So this is kind of a hybrid of their theory and what I came up with.

Among many other things, middles can:

raise the stakes and make the stakes ever more personal, to show why it's the protagonist who has to be the one to take action

have other, less costly strategies fail, to show why the protagonist has to take their final (costly) decisive action

show why the protagonist is reluctant to take that action, ie, the reasons they don't just go out and resolve the problem straight away.

It's all about building tension so the climax feels climactic and earned.

All roads lead to the Guardian drama, for me, and thinking about Guardian through the lens above made my brain light up. The show does all three of those things so well, using those strategies to ratchet up tension in a way I find super satisfying. And since one of the exercises they talk about in the podcast is looking at existing works and reverse-engineering outlines, I thought I'd analyse Shen Wei's choices leading up to and during the finale, in those terms, for A and B.

A) Why is it Shen Wei who has to stop Ye Zun?

Note: these bullet points are cumulative. The first one (that Shen Wei is the Envoy, and managing Dixing incursions in Haixing is his responsibility) never goes away; it just gets layered with more and more additional reasons.

To start with, we don't know that Ye Zun is behind things. Someone is causing trouble and going after the Hallows. It's the Black-Cloaked Envoy's job to stop them.

From early on, people are coming after the Hallows, and we learn that Shen Wei is looking for the Hallows, too.

ep 13: Zhao Yunlan is kidnapped for his status and usefulness, by Zhu Jiu and Zheng Yi. Shen Wei cares intensely about Zhao Yunlan. This begins the process of making things personal.

ep 15: we learn Shen Wei has a special power that makes him a "boss".
ZYL: Hei-laoge, there is one question I've wanted to ask you for a long time. What is your special ability?
SW: Why do you ask?
ZYL: According to our information, each Dixingren can only have one ability. But you can do both melee and distant attacks, in addition, close the door and curtains telekinetically. You are like a bug. (a computer programming abnormality)
SW: I only have one ability as well: learning. I can transfer the ability I see into my own. In principle, my material is endless. But since I am restrained by the Guardian Token and because of the limit of dark energy itself, I can only show limited power up here. You thought too highly of me... if you view me as omnipotent.
ZYL: If you were in a game, you must be the boss.
SW: (thinks) However, to be powerful, one must pay a price.
In thinking that last line, Shen Wei is confirming that great threats are his responsibility because he's the one who has the power to handle them. It may also be that, if he suspects a) Ye Zun is involved, and b) Ye Zun is able to absorb people's powers by eating them, then he is resolving here not to let his power fall into the wrong hands.

ep 20: during Ye Zun's first attack, Zhao Yunlan is blinded -- a great cost, and Ye Zun isn't even corporeal yet!

ep 23: Shen Wei talks to the pillar. Whether or not we've figured out their familial relationship, Ye Zun's antagonism is explicitly personal.

Ye Zun becomes increasingly active, and his minions attack the SID directly (eg, the Master of Nightmares). It becomes ever more clear that Ye Zun, with his charismatic radicalisation and his mind control, has frightening and unlimited resources at his disposal, and he knows how to use them.

ep 34: Ye Zun impersonates Shen Wei in Haixing, using that disguise to get close to Zhao Yunlan and attack him. Wang Zheng and Sang Zan throw themselves into the line of fire, and even so, Shen Wei barely arrives in time to stop Ye Zun again. The impersonation is a direct attack on the trust between Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan, so is super personal.

eps 34-35: And then we have Ye Olde Haixing Era:
- We find out/confirm Ye Zun is Shen Wei's twin. At this point, it's clear the threat is fundamentally personal for Shen Wei, who is Ye Zun's older brother and so is responsible for him. (As a contrast/thought experiment: if it had been Chu Shuzhi's brother, Nianzhi, who was destabilising the world from beyond the grave, I think most people would instinctively feel that this was Chu Shuzhi's story, and it had to be Chu Shuzhi who was central to fixing it in the end.) Shen Wei can't allow Ye Zun to wreak havoc in Haixing, on innocent people, and he can't let him harm Zhao Yunlan (or the SID), in either era.
- We also find out that Ye Zun's contemporary vendetta against Shen Wei is a continuation of the war the Envoy fought 10k years ago. We see Shen Wei determined to keep the peace and to protect his people. We see his shock at finding his brother has taken his enemy's place, and we see Ye Zun's bitterness and determination to get vengeance. Ye Zun is clearly (and not really through any fault of his own) someone who can't be reasoned with. And the stakes could not possibly be more personal.

ep 35: return to present day. Shen Wei learns Ye Zun has impersonated him in Dixing, in a direct attack on Shen Wei's reputation and used this deception to destabilise the safety of both worlds by ripping up the treaty and inciting Dixingren to be dissatisfied. The peace Shen Wei worked so hard to establish is shaken and could now turn into an outright war between Dixing and Haixing.

So, all of Shen Wei's people, in both worlds, are under threat from Ye Zun. This isn't a danger Shen Wei can disavow responsibility for, even if he wanted to.

Finally, in episode 40, after Shen Wei's sacrifice, we see the event that set things in motion: young Shen Wei's promise to protect his brother when they were children, and his failure to do so. It's that failure that led directly, over 10k years, to the ending: his brother as a raging megalomaniac, threatening to destroy everything.

And although it's in no way fair, narratively speaking that failure is the real reason it had to be Shen Wei who stopped Ye Zun.

B) Progressively more drastic attempts to mitigate/stop Ye Zun's attacks

To start with, Shen Wei as the Black-Cloaked Envoy and, separately, working with the SID as Professor Shen, tries to stop each individual attack. A few people get hurt and killed, but overall, they're keeping a lid on it. They work to secure the Hallows and place them at the SID.

ep 13: When Zhao Yunlan is kidnapped by Zhu Jiu, Shen Wei overextends himself for the first time, trying to find Zhao Yunlan and rescue him. We start to see the limits of the Envoy's powers in Haixing.

eps 20-22: Then Zhao Yunlan is blinded in his first confrontation with Ye Zun. Shen Wei manages to send Ye Zun to his room, but he can't restore Zhao Yunlan's sight. It takes several attempts/strategies to cure him, and there are costs to Shen Wei: humbling himself to the doctor, taking the risk of sharing his energy, and receiving light-energy contamination. (They also try the Yashou market, which doesn't have any real costs or benefits.)

Shen Wei doesn't begrudge these costs at all. As he says, Zhao Yunlan is absolutely worth it (as someone Shen Wei holds dear, and probably also as someone who is needed to maintain the integrity of the timeline, because time travel).

ep 23: Shen Wei's light-energy contamination is probably an unintended side-effect of the energy exchange, but he quickly realises he can turn his weakness into a failsafe. Even at full power, he wasn't strong enough to be sure of victory over Ye Zun, and he can't risk his abilities falling into his brother's hands. But he doesn't stop looking for another way--

ep 29: Wang Xiangyang unlocks the Sky Pillar before Shen Wei and the SID realise that was the plan all along, so Shen Wei hurries to Dixing to try to contain Ye Zun (and perhaps hoping to mobilise the palace to act?). Instead, it's Shen Wei who ends up chained to the Sky Pillar for days, unable to protect his people, the palace having already fallen to Ye Zun's side. Ye Zun's power keeps growing like a malevolent avalanche.

ep 30: At Ye Zun's bidding, Ya Qing hacks the SID and releases information, undermining their public reputation, turning all of Haixing against them. This is an attack on their status and also a strategic move to weaken/hamper the SID in doing their jobs and supporting Shen Wei to do his. And even Cong Bo can't put all the worms back in the can.

ep 37: There's still one last hope: the Hallows. But when they find the Guardian Lantern, the wick is missing, and when Shen Wei goes in search of it, in Dixing -- a final shot at finding an alternative solution to the Threat of Ye Zun -- he's ambushed and tortured.

eps 37-40: There are no more options open to him. It's too late. The only thing he can do now is to make one last, desperate move.

Questions
Does this way of looking at things work for you?
What have I missed?
I ran out of time to look at C) the reasons Shen Wei doesn't just go and blow up Ye Zun as soon as he realises he can use his light-energy contamination, but I think the show does a pretty good job of setting out all the things he has to lose/live for. What do you think?

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I really enjoyed reading this post, and the discussion in the comments, too. I don't think I've ever seen a breakdown of the (possible) functions of "middles" of stories before, so I found the ideas you mentioned from the podcast interesting just in themselves, and the way you break down how they work in Guardian makes for a great concrete example of what those story techniques can look like. I agree with

miss_ingno that the narrative has some flaws that sometimes make it hard (for me, at least) to take the main villain/threat very seriously, and having the SID team be more proactive and organized might have helped with that. But I also agree with how you analyzed all the parts of the plot that do work to build up the threat, and Shen Wei's very personal responsibility to deal with it.

I think the stuff in your "A" section builds up in an especially elegant way, and the culmination with the promise he failed to keep is really powerful, because we finally see the sense in which he is (unfair as it may be) responsible -- or at least, we see why Ye Zun feels he's responsible, and we see that Ye Zun's reasons are understandable, even if they're wrong.

This makes me think about a similar set of "middle" bullet points that could be written for the gradual process of finding out what Ye Zun's deal actually is. During the middle part of the drama he keeps giving convoluted and hypocritical "reasons" for what he's doing, and explanations of what he aims to achieve, and we can tell he's targeting Shen Wei, but if I remember, I think we don't really start to get solid clues about his real vendetta until the YOHE episodes, and then it all comes together in the end when we find out how Shen Wei failed to protect him. So the "how is this personal" part of the plot includes questions and reveals about how it's personal from Ye Zun's side, as well.

Edited 2022-07-04 14:28 (UTC)

the narrative has some flaws that sometimes make it hard (for me, at least) to take the main villain/threat very seriously

Huh, that surprises me a bit; I never felt like that myself, but now that you and

miss_ingno both say it I can see that that's where the disconnect is for me, with some takes on the Ye Zun threat that I've seen. Do you mind talking a little more about what makes it hard for you to take him seriously?

This makes me think about a similar set of "middle" bullet points that could be written for the gradual process of finding out what Ye Zun's deal actually is.

Oooh, yes, that's an excellent point!

I can see that that's where the disconnect is for me, with some takes on the Ye Zun threat that I've seen.

Hmm, now I'm curious about what kind of takes on Ye Zun you have in mind, because I wonder if we're talking about different things. I've read very few Ye Zun stories and don't really have a good sense of how he's typically portrayed by the fandom, but I certainly think he's meant to be taken seriously! Apart from parody/humor/crack type stuff, I'd find it very strange to see a fic portray him as if he wasn't a threat.

Do you mind talking a little more about what makes it hard for you to take him seriously?

So, my answer to this got kind of long and might not even exactly address what you were asking about! But here it is anyway. XD

Some of the problem isn't really narrative per se; it partly comes down to the show's limited budget, but also directing choices about how to deal with that. The way the series is filmed makes it hard for me to picture the "war" we keep hearing about, because it seems like the enemy army can't possibly consist of more than a couple dozen people, based on the evidence we see. Ye Zun's "vanguard" turns out to be four people. And it's not like "there's a huge vanguard but we're going to just focus on these four." As far as I can tell, that is literally supposed to be the entire vanguard.

Similarly, a handful of Dixingren standing around in the street is the nearest thing we see to a crowd/mob, and again, it doesn't look like "we're just showing you the tip of the iceberg," it looks like that's really the size of the crowd. So we don't really get a sense of Ye Zun commanding some terrible army -- just a few individual puppets who are all a bit ridiculous and comic-book-villain-y, like Zhu Jiu. They're dangerous in that they do kill people, but they just don't come across as a truly wide-ranging, world-threatening enemy force. In terms of geographical range, their scope seems very limited, especially since (as far as I remember) we never get even the slightest mention or clue about the existence of such things as international travel or foreign cultures. Dragon City is treated as if it were the only place that mattered.

Obviously, the action of the story takes place in Dragon City because that's where the clash happened 10,000 years ago, where Shen Wei was buried, and (I guess?) the only place with portals to Dixing. But for me there isn't enough canonical worldbuilding to make sense of the way Ye Zun is talked about as a threat to Haixing at large. How major a city is Dragon City? Are there other countries in this world? Does Dixing extend underground all over the world? Is Dragon City the only place affected by Dixing's existence? Should there be, I don't know, international conferences about what's going on here, or some kind of attempt at military intervention or something, instead of just Zhao Yunlan's little team trying to singlehandedly save the entire world?

The worldbuilding in Dixing has similar problems, but even more so, I think. We don't really get any information about its size or population, modes of travel or communication, etc., and all we ever see are tiny handfuls of people. The limited numbers of sets and visible Dixingren make sense because of the show's budget, and wouldn't bother me in themselves, but I feel like we need more suggestion, whether via dialogue or props or whatever, of what kind of world is supposed to be out there beyond the little we actually see, so we can get a sense of what's really at stake if Ye Zun comes to power.

And like

miss_ingno said, the way our heroes at the SID react to the threat also feels very local and personal, not large-scale. There don't seem to be any contingency plans, or much organization on the Haixing side. Clearly we're supposed to regard Ye Zun as a serious threat, and I think if you try to write fanfic about him as if he's not, you're misreading the story. I think he has to be interpreted as a threat not just to Dragon City, but to the world. But this is a case where I feel like fic writers have to do more than the show did, add more worldbuilding, give the people of Dixing more presence and agency, show the SID planning more, maybe researching more, doing more behind the scenes, etc., to convey the intended scale.

...Hopefully this doesn't come off as overly critical of the show! Lord knows all the other Cdramas I love best have even bigger budget problems and scale problems and everything else. XD But I guess what I'm saying is that to me, maybe Ye Zun's plot actually feels a bit too personal? I would have liked to see more evidence of how his power and influence extend (or are expected to spread) beyond just the damage we see inflicted on our heroes and their small part of the world.

Hmm, now I'm curious about what kind of takes on Ye Zun you have in mind, because I wonder if we're talking about different things. I've read very few Ye Zun stories and don't really have a good sense of how he's typically portrayed by the fandom, but I certainly think he's meant to be taken seriously!

Yeah, my impression is that some people just not take him seriously as a threat, treating it like it could have easily been resolved, which is not how I see it at all. (And not just because it undermines the gravitas and impact of the ending ...)

But I see what you mean now - thanks for writing it all out like this!

The way the series is filmed makes it hard for me to picture the "war" we keep hearing about, because it seems like the enemy army can't possibly consist of more than a couple dozen people, based on the evidence we see.

Yeah, that's a problem especially with the invasion at the end, and with the YOHE episodes as well, which also suffer from "five people tussling" syndrome. *g* I entirely understand your point there, and I agree that much of it is budget-related. Personally I don't have a problem taking that as, essentially the TV version of a stageplay, with all the associated unrealistic smallness, and mentally scaling it up to what makes sense in context, but I completely agree that it can be distracting sometimes!

it doesn't look like "we're just showing you the tip of the iceberg," it looks like that's really the size of the crowd

Thinking about it, I guess I'm taking it as neither, really, more as a degree of unreality/symbolic representation? I'm just thinking out loud here, puzzling out how my own mental approach works, LOL. I would have loved a more "tip of the iceberg" approach if they couldn't manage an actual crowd - I definitely prefer a more realistic style in general.

So we don't really get a sense of Ye Zun commanding some terrible army -- just a few individual puppets who are all a bit ridiculous and comic-book-villain-y, like Zhu Jiu.

To some degree I'd say the comic book villainy, and other comic book stuff, is built into the whole scenario with the Black-Cloaked Envoy already, and I don't find Zhu Jiu all that ridiculous, but I know he elicits that response in a lot of people. *g* Now that you say it, though, I think part of my own feelings may in fact be genre-related, not just because of the masked superhero aspect but also because "mutants" slots right into that genre in my head, mainly individual people wreaking havoc with their individual weird powers ... I hadn't thought of Guardian's structure in quite those terms before; thank you for making me think about this!

In terms of geographical range, their scope seems very limited, especially since (as far as I remember) we never get even the slightest mention or clue about the existence of such things as international travel or foreign cultures. Dragon City is treated as if it were the only place that mattered.

Yeah, agreed, there's a lot more scope for worldbuilding there, and they could have alluded to a great deal more even if they didn't have the budget to show much.

Obviously, the action of the story takes place in Dragon City because that's where the clash happened 10,000 years ago, where Shen Wei was buried, and (I guess?) the only place with portals to Dixing. But for me there isn't enough canonical worldbuilding to make sense of the way Ye Zun is talked about as a threat to Haixing at large.

Yeah, as far as we know there are only two portals, both created by Ma Gui, and one of them (the one in Snake Yashou territory) was inactive. So the SID and the government departments that deal with such things and the lab researching Dixing powers being in Dragon City makes sense on that front. But there's no ... idk, no intermediate step between "Dragon City" and "the whole planet" when it comes to the stakes - it's incidents endangering individuals in the city, and the city itself, and then suddenly "invasion!" and "planet in danger of collapsing!"

How major a city is Dragon City? Are there other countries in this world? Does Dixing extend underground all over the world? Is Dragon City the only place affected by Dixing's existence?

Those are very good questions, and ones I would have loved to see explored! As far as I can remember, it does say that Dixing's population is far smaller than Haixing's, so Dixing itself probably doesn't extend all that far, but even so, all we ever get to see is a few streets, the palace, a field of ruins, and the volcano. Budget, I know, but damn do I wish they could have really gone wild there!

Should there be, I don't know, international conferences about what's going on here, or some kind of attempt at military intervention or something, instead of just Zhao Yunlan's little team trying to singlehandedly save the entire world?

FWIW, my impression is that the government (which is either the government of one country or a world government, LOL, we don't even know that much!) is keeping knowledge of Dixing very contained, and the ministry in Dragon City is essentially acting on its own. The Haixing lab was an attempt by them to find a way to counteract the (perceived or real) threat, whereas they were all too willing to undermine the SID and get them out of the way when they weren't cooperating the way the Xingdu Bureau wanted, so IMO in the end whatever they'd done it would still have been Zhao Yunlan's little team on their own, just with even more government interference to get around. *g*

I feel like we need more suggestion, whether via dialogue or props or whatever, of what kind of world is supposed to be out there beyond the little we actually see, so we can get a sense of what's really at stake if Ye Zun comes to power.

That would have been lovely! I wonder if part of why Dixing worldbuiding is comparatively thin is because in the original novel, and possibly still in the original script for the drama, it's all supernatural and Dixing isn't Dixing, but literally Hell. Given censorship requirements, all that had to be removed, and they did a brilliant job with making it into aliens and mutants - I really love the additional themes they managed to build into the drama that way, around immigration and bigotry and such - but perhaps something fell by the wayside there in terms of worldbuilding? Idk.

There don't seem to be any contingency plans, or much organization on the Haixing side.

I'm not sure what that would have looked like, tbh, because I feel the SID did everything they could, given that they had very limited resources and were hampered by their own superiors getting in the way of things, and were constantly battered by Ye Zun's attacks even before they reached (supposedly-)global levels ...

But this is a case where I feel like fic writers have to do more than the show did, add more worldbuilding, give the people of Dixing more presence and agency, show the SID planning more, maybe researching more, doing more behind the scenes, etc., to convey the intended scale.

It's certainly easier to do it in fanfic than on TV! *g* But yeah, I very much appreciate it when fic does all that, because I want that, all of it!

But I guess what I'm saying is that to me, maybe Ye Zun's plot actually feels a bit too personal? I would have liked to see more evidence of how his power and influence extend (or are expected to spread) beyond just the damage we see inflicted on our heroes and their small part of the world.

It didn't feel that way to me (because *gestures above re: stageplay and genre and all*), but that makes perfect sense to me. Thank you again for explaining, that's been very helpful to me in thinking things through and understanding where people are coming from!

Yeah, my impression is that some people just not take him seriously as a threat, treating it like it could have easily been resolved

Oh, yeah, no, I definitely don't see it like that! And I agree with your comment elsewhere where you said you can never buy an "easy" solution for Ye Zun. I think the show does clearly convey that nothing less than Shen Wei's final sacrifice would have been enough to either destroy him or redeem him.

Personally I don't have a problem taking that as, essentially the TV version of a stageplay, with all the associated unrealistic smallness, and mentally scaling it up to what makes sense in context

Yeah, that's entirely fair. I guess... a bit of a tangent away from Guardian here, but thinking about it, one reason I enjoy watching older TV shows is because I have no problem treating TV like theater and scaling up in my head when the whole production requires heavy suspension of disbelief. But when I'm watching a newer show with generally good production values, it's much harder for me to avoid taking what we see onscreen as a fairly literal picture of the fictional world. Like, if I'm watching a stage play and the "army" is eight people, I obviously know this is symbolic, and having to mentally supply the idea of a real army feels completely normal. Or if I'm watching a horror B-movie from 1935 and everything is made of styrofoam and the bats are on strings, yeah, it's a bit comical, but I can look past it because that's just the medium. For almost anything filmed later than around the mid 90s, though, the overall production usually just looks so good and so real that whenever something strikes me as fake, it kind of throws me out of the fiction.

With Guardian, the overall comic-book style helps counteract that a bit, because it's not ultra-realistic, and there's a lot of stuff going on where you just have to accept it based on genre conventions, like you said. People with superpowers are doing battle in in capes and masks? Great, yes, more of this please! I can suspend my disbelief about magical glaives all day long. But sometimes the "five people tussling" stuff is just a little too much like a stage play for me, compared to the rest of the show. XD

You make good points about the government stuff (though more government interference might have been interesting!), and yeah, you may be right that Dixing worldbuilding got so little attention because it didn't originally seem like it would be necessary, given the novel. I do really like the direction they went with it to avoid censorship -- what we do get to see of Dixing is really neat. Which is part of why it's disappointing that there isn't more!

It's certainly easier to do it in fanfic than on TV!

Yes, that's very true! Which I guess is part of why we're all here. :D

I think the show does clearly convey that nothing less than Shen Wei's final sacrifice would have been enough to either destroy him or redeem him.

Yes, this! ♥ ♥ ♥

one reason I enjoy watching older TV shows is because I have no problem treating TV like theater and scaling up in my head when the whole production requires heavy suspension of disbelief. But when I'm watching a newer show with generally good production values, it's much harder for me to avoid taking what we see onscreen as a fairly literal picture of the fictional world

Oh, that's fascinating! I'm the same way with older TV - I know some people find it difficult to watch, but it doesn't bother me at all. But for me, I guess newer shows don't make a difference. People often complain about things like cheap special effects, bad wigs or costumes, filmed in a quarry, etc., and if I'm into a show I barely notice them. It's like my mind only really focuses on those things when I don't like something about the the rest (the script, the acting, the characters and plot), and glosses over them otherwise. *g*

though more government interference might have been interesting!

Yes, absolutely! I regret that we could only get one version of Guardian, and not all the potential ones that might have been. *g*

I do really like the direction they went with it to avoid censorship -- what we do get to see of Dixing is really neat. Which is part of why it's disappointing that there isn't more!

I know! My eternal complaint when I love something: why isn't there MORE?!

Yes, that's very true! Which I guess is part of why we're all here. :D

And also why we keep wanting more fic, because there's always more we could still do! :D

People often complain about things like cheap special effects, bad wigs or costumes, filmed in a quarry, etc., and if I'm into a show I barely notice them. It's like my mind only really focuses on those things when I don't like something about the the rest (the script, the acting, the characters and plot), and glosses over them otherwise. *g*

Me too! (I do notice bad animation, regardless, because my partner's an animator, but I can brush it off pretty easily.)

(I actually find the complaints about wigs really distracting, because they get in my head and call attention to the artifice, and that's the last thing I want when I'm watching. ;-p)

I don't know how to tell good animation from bad animation, but animation rarely works for me because I tend to find the art style offputting.

I meant CGI (though I do watch a lot of fully animated shows and movies as well).

Oh, that makes more sense! *g*

People often complain about things like cheap special effects, bad wigs or costumes, filmed in a quarry, etc., and if I'm into a show I barely notice them.

Most of these don't bother me either, actually! I do notice bad CGI, but I don't tend to think much about wigs or costumes or film sets/locations unless they're reeeeally bad (or really amazing). The stuff from your second list is more what I had in mind -- stuff like scripts and acting styles. Like, I expect a show from 1960 to have more theatrical acting, and I don't mind it there, but that same style of acting might look bad to me in a modern show. I guess having to scale up the number of people in a crowd falls into that category for me, whereas I don't much mind about props and costumes, for some reason. Seems like we all have slightly different thresholds for suspension of disbelief!

Yeah, it's really fascinating how we all have different lines for what reads as intrusive or offputting or disbelief-unsuspending to us! I'm really enjoying talking about this. :D

Yay, thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it. :D :D :D

the narrative has some flaws that sometimes make it hard (for me, at least) to take the main villain/threat very seriously

Ha, it worked well for me, especially with how powerful Ye Zun is even when incorporeal and the chillingly casual way he eats people. It must be an "in the eye of the beholder" thing. :-)

I think the stuff in your "A" section builds up in an especially elegant way, and the culmination with the promise he failed to keep is really powerful, because we finally see the sense in which he is (unfair as it may be) responsible -- or at least, we see why Ye Zun feels he's responsible, and we see that Ye Zun's reasons are understandable, even if they're wrong.

Yesss, it's some really satisfying storytelling, I think. :-)

This makes me think about a similar set of "middle" bullet points that could be written for the gradual process of finding out what Ye Zun's deal actually is. During the middle part of the drama he keeps giving convoluted and hypocritical "reasons" for what he's doing, and explanations of what he aims to achieve, and we can tell he's targeting Shen Wei, but if I remember, I think we don't really start to get solid clues about his real vendetta until the YOHE episodes

Ohh, that would be super interesting, yes! There's the scene that Da Qing overhears at the pillar (ep 23, 9:27):

YZ: You've gotten thinner.
SW: Ye Zun, just stop it. Are you really set on destroying everyone for the sake of your ambition?
YZ: Anyone can urge me to stop, but never you. Don't forget, not only are we related, I'm also your benefactor.
SW: That is nonsense.
YZ: Is it? You should know. Who returned you to glory and made you shine? Don't look far, he's right under your nose.
SW: My awakening is a joke this world played on me. It has nothing to do with you.
YZ: Only because I'm trapped here, neither living nor dying, can you go on with this life. Do you still not get that? It means you can't kill me.
SW: You underestimate me. As long as I can get rid of you, even if I have to sacrifice myself, so what?
YZ: Big words. While I'm imprisoned here, I can't get out, and you can't come in. Get rid of me? Be my guest!
SW: Even so, I will do everything in my power to confine you here. Just like the last ten thousand years.
YZ: Once the curtains have parted, the show's not over till the music ends. Can you prevent this all by yourself?
SW: Let it go.

But like Da Qing, we don't really know what most of it means at that point. It would be fascinating to see that all put together. :-D

Ha, it worked well for me, especially with how powerful Ye Zun is even when incorporeal and the chillingly casual way he eats people. It must be an "in the eye of the beholder" thing. :-)

Oh, no, I definitely don't mean that Ye Zun himself doesn't seem dangerous! As I said in my reply to

trobadora, what I meant is more that I think Ye Zun's actions are meant to be regarded as (a prelude to) full-scale war on all of Haixing, and I feel like there are ways the show could have conveyed that level of power and danger more convincingly, e.g. by having the SID be more organized and proactive and better equipped, but all their efforts still failing.

There's the scene that Da Qing overhears at the pillar

Oh, yes, I forgot about that! Scenes like that, exactly. :)

Hi, I'm very much in the realm of personal preference, here, so... :-)

This is actually one of the places where the budget constraints/story choices work really well for me! BtVS was my first SF/F show, and it's also built on this model, where Sunnydale is a proxy for (or launching pad to) the rest of the world, without ever really acknowledging that (and where the core cast are the only ones who can intervene to save the day). Similarly, MCU often uses NYC, like in the first Avengers film. So I'm very comfortable with this kind of soft world-building and a story that ignores practical/logical extrapolations about the wider context.

If they'd scaled it up, hardened the world-building and had vast crowds and armies, that would have actually put me off, I think. I'm not here for military tactics or battle scenes. (I know this isn't necessarily what you were suggesting; my train of thought makes its own rails. *g*) I wonder if this is because I don't read epic fantasy, so I don't have sweeping world-spanning stories in my head for localised-threat stories to be overshadowed by?

The only bit I do side-eye a little is when Minister Gao tries to bring in the army, and ZXC(? ZS?) and Li Qian are like, "No! Bad idea!" and knock him out so they can reverse his order. I feel like maybe a quick explanation of why the army wouldn't work would have helped, because yeah, in the case of existential threat, you should use all the weapons at your disposal. I can think of plenty of reasons why the army was a bad idea, from civilian collateral damage to many Dixingren being unaffected by normal bullets (hence the need for a dark-energy gun) to Ye Zun's mind control, but it would've been good to know what Li Qian & co. were thinking. And, y'know, I had the same problem in season 7 of BtVS when, facing a vast threat, they didn't try to call in the army, so I tend to assume that's a genre thing. :-)

As far as Dixing goes, I'm actually very happy with it being a rough sketch, and getting to fill in the details in fic.

Mostly I feel like this is a story that spans about six months, and the SID go from zero to 100 in that time, from a lackadaisical "law enforcement" agency that hasn't had any/many cases in the last three years to a ~~plucky band of fighters~~ team who are fierce and cohesive and prepared to give their lives. I love all of them, and I want the story to be pretty much exclusively about them (with occasional vague indications of the potential fall-out) -- and Guardian kindly obliged on that score. *g* For me, everything else is just set dressing, and too much set dressing would get in the way.

I think Ye Zun's actions are meant to be regarded as (a prelude to) full-scale war on all of Haixing

Yeeah, I do tend to refer to it as an uprising or invasion in fic, rather than a war. There were plenty of casualties, but we didn't see a lot of fighters.

From your comment to Trobadora:
But sometimes the "five people tussling" stuff is just a little too much like a stage play for me, compared to the rest of the show. XD

Ha, I think the thing for me is that "five people tussling" is exactly how my brain works. I am super vague about action scenes, and even if a story shows me an epic battle, my brain will translate it into five people tussling (or just a blurry confusing melee that can't hold my attention). So it doesn't bother me at all if that's what's on the screen -- it's actually better, because it's easier to follow. *g*

tl;dr I am the Guardian drama's exact target audience. \o?

Edited 2022-07-05 21:39 (UTC)

I wonder if this is because I don't read epic fantasy, so I don't have sweeping world-spanning stories in my head for localised-threat stories to be overshadowed by?

Epic sci-fi for me! So, worlds-spanning. Very appropriate for Guardian! :p

(This is super fascinating! I love reading about how our brains work differently engaging with the same media. ♥)

Epic sci-fi for me! So, worlds-spanning. Very appropriate for Guardian! :p

Oh, yes, of course. *facepalm* (This is Writing Excuses getting in my brain; one of the hosts writes epic fantasy, so it comes up a lot.)

I think the only epic SF I watch is probably The Expanse (unless the occasional Star Wars property counts?), and I'm 100% there for the characters. The story could be much smaller in scope, and it would make no difference to me, though I do enjoy The Expanse's hard sciencing. /wildly off-topic now

♥

I wonder if this is because I don't read epic fantasy, so I don't have sweeping world-spanning stories in my head for localised-threat stories to be overshadowed by?

I'm not mainly into epic fantasy either, so I don't think it's that, exactly? I'd be happy with the threat being local to Dragon City. I think for me there's just a bit of a disconnect due to Ye Zun being implicitly an epic, world-spanning threat, but acting and being treated more like a local supervillain. But a) as you say, this is obviously a matter of personal interpretation/preference and probably also genre conventions (and superhero stuff is admittedly not my usual genre), and b) I think my long comment to

trobadora makes it sound like I'm a lot more concerned about this epic/local stuff than I actually am. XD My initial mention of "narrative flaws" was only really meant as an acknowledgement, since I'd been reading your conversation with

miss_ingno and could see both sides.

tl;dr I am the Guardian drama's exact target audience. \o?

And I might be too picky to be the exact target audience for anything. XD

Yeah, the show does a lot of Dragon City ≡ Haixing, like I'm pretty sure all the shots we get of ZYL's broadcast are in Dragon City, too. I think it is a genre thing.

And I might be too picky to be the exact target audience for anything. XD

Hee! *hearts* :D

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Meta: narrative structure and raising the stakes in the Guardian drama

A) Why is it Shen Wei who has to stop Ye Zun?

B) Progressively more drastic attempts to mitigate/stop Ye Zun's attacks

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