sid_guardian | Meta: narrative structure and raising the stakes in the Guardian drama

Entry tags:

Meta: narrative structure and raising the stakes in the Guardian drama

I've been listening to a lot of writing and narrative meta lately (mostly Writing Excuses podcast), and one of the things they discussed is what the middles of stories can do in terms of narratives. (Note: they generally focus on plotty stories.) So this is kind of a hybrid of their theory and what I came up with.

Among many other things, middles can:

raise the stakes and make the stakes ever more personal, to show why it's the protagonist who has to be the one to take action

have other, less costly strategies fail, to show why the protagonist has to take their final (costly) decisive action

show why the protagonist is reluctant to take that action, ie, the reasons they don't just go out and resolve the problem straight away.

It's all about building tension so the climax feels climactic and earned.

All roads lead to the Guardian drama, for me, and thinking about Guardian through the lens above made my brain light up. The show does all three of those things so well, using those strategies to ratchet up tension in a way I find super satisfying. And since one of the exercises they talk about in the podcast is looking at existing works and reverse-engineering outlines, I thought I'd analyse Shen Wei's choices leading up to and during the finale, in those terms, for A and B.

A) Why is it Shen Wei who has to stop Ye Zun?

Note: these bullet points are cumulative. The first one (that Shen Wei is the Envoy, and managing Dixing incursions in Haixing is his responsibility) never goes away; it just gets layered with more and more additional reasons.

To start with, we don't know that Ye Zun is behind things. Someone is causing trouble and going after the Hallows. It's the Black-Cloaked Envoy's job to stop them.

From early on, people are coming after the Hallows, and we learn that Shen Wei is looking for the Hallows, too.

ep 13: Zhao Yunlan is kidnapped for his status and usefulness, by Zhu Jiu and Zheng Yi. Shen Wei cares intensely about Zhao Yunlan. This begins the process of making things personal.

ep 15: we learn Shen Wei has a special power that makes him a "boss".
ZYL: Hei-laoge, there is one question I've wanted to ask you for a long time. What is your special ability?
SW: Why do you ask?
ZYL: According to our information, each Dixingren can only have one ability. But you can do both melee and distant attacks, in addition, close the door and curtains telekinetically. You are like a bug. (a computer programming abnormality)
SW: I only have one ability as well: learning. I can transfer the ability I see into my own. In principle, my material is endless. But since I am restrained by the Guardian Token and because of the limit of dark energy itself, I can only show limited power up here. You thought too highly of me... if you view me as omnipotent.
ZYL: If you were in a game, you must be the boss.
SW: (thinks) However, to be powerful, one must pay a price.
In thinking that last line, Shen Wei is confirming that great threats are his responsibility because he's the one who has the power to handle them. It may also be that, if he suspects a) Ye Zun is involved, and b) Ye Zun is able to absorb people's powers by eating them, then he is resolving here not to let his power fall into the wrong hands.

ep 20: during Ye Zun's first attack, Zhao Yunlan is blinded -- a great cost, and Ye Zun isn't even corporeal yet!

ep 23: Shen Wei talks to the pillar. Whether or not we've figured out their familial relationship, Ye Zun's antagonism is explicitly personal.

Ye Zun becomes increasingly active, and his minions attack the SID directly (eg, the Master of Nightmares). It becomes ever more clear that Ye Zun, with his charismatic radicalisation and his mind control, has frightening and unlimited resources at his disposal, and he knows how to use them.

ep 34: Ye Zun impersonates Shen Wei in Haixing, using that disguise to get close to Zhao Yunlan and attack him. Wang Zheng and Sang Zan throw themselves into the line of fire, and even so, Shen Wei barely arrives in time to stop Ye Zun again. The impersonation is a direct attack on the trust between Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan, so is super personal.

eps 34-35: And then we have Ye Olde Haixing Era:
- We find out/confirm Ye Zun is Shen Wei's twin. At this point, it's clear the threat is fundamentally personal for Shen Wei, who is Ye Zun's older brother and so is responsible for him. (As a contrast/thought experiment: if it had been Chu Shuzhi's brother, Nianzhi, who was destabilising the world from beyond the grave, I think most people would instinctively feel that this was Chu Shuzhi's story, and it had to be Chu Shuzhi who was central to fixing it in the end.) Shen Wei can't allow Ye Zun to wreak havoc in Haixing, on innocent people, and he can't let him harm Zhao Yunlan (or the SID), in either era.
- We also find out that Ye Zun's contemporary vendetta against Shen Wei is a continuation of the war the Envoy fought 10k years ago. We see Shen Wei determined to keep the peace and to protect his people. We see his shock at finding his brother has taken his enemy's place, and we see Ye Zun's bitterness and determination to get vengeance. Ye Zun is clearly (and not really through any fault of his own) someone who can't be reasoned with. And the stakes could not possibly be more personal.

ep 35: return to present day. Shen Wei learns Ye Zun has impersonated him in Dixing, in a direct attack on Shen Wei's reputation and used this deception to destabilise the safety of both worlds by ripping up the treaty and inciting Dixingren to be dissatisfied. The peace Shen Wei worked so hard to establish is shaken and could now turn into an outright war between Dixing and Haixing.

So, all of Shen Wei's people, in both worlds, are under threat from Ye Zun. This isn't a danger Shen Wei can disavow responsibility for, even if he wanted to.

Finally, in episode 40, after Shen Wei's sacrifice, we see the event that set things in motion: young Shen Wei's promise to protect his brother when they were children, and his failure to do so. It's that failure that led directly, over 10k years, to the ending: his brother as a raging megalomaniac, threatening to destroy everything.

And although it's in no way fair, narratively speaking that failure is the real reason it had to be Shen Wei who stopped Ye Zun.

B) Progressively more drastic attempts to mitigate/stop Ye Zun's attacks

To start with, Shen Wei as the Black-Cloaked Envoy and, separately, working with the SID as Professor Shen, tries to stop each individual attack. A few people get hurt and killed, but overall, they're keeping a lid on it. They work to secure the Hallows and place them at the SID.

ep 13: When Zhao Yunlan is kidnapped by Zhu Jiu, Shen Wei overextends himself for the first time, trying to find Zhao Yunlan and rescue him. We start to see the limits of the Envoy's powers in Haixing.

eps 20-22: Then Zhao Yunlan is blinded in his first confrontation with Ye Zun. Shen Wei manages to send Ye Zun to his room, but he can't restore Zhao Yunlan's sight. It takes several attempts/strategies to cure him, and there are costs to Shen Wei: humbling himself to the doctor, taking the risk of sharing his energy, and receiving light-energy contamination. (They also try the Yashou market, which doesn't have any real costs or benefits.)

Shen Wei doesn't begrudge these costs at all. As he says, Zhao Yunlan is absolutely worth it (as someone Shen Wei holds dear, and probably also as someone who is needed to maintain the integrity of the timeline, because time travel).

ep 23: Shen Wei's light-energy contamination is probably an unintended side-effect of the energy exchange, but he quickly realises he can turn his weakness into a failsafe. Even at full power, he wasn't strong enough to be sure of victory over Ye Zun, and he can't risk his abilities falling into his brother's hands. But he doesn't stop looking for another way--

ep 29: Wang Xiangyang unlocks the Sky Pillar before Shen Wei and the SID realise that was the plan all along, so Shen Wei hurries to Dixing to try to contain Ye Zun (and perhaps hoping to mobilise the palace to act?). Instead, it's Shen Wei who ends up chained to the Sky Pillar for days, unable to protect his people, the palace having already fallen to Ye Zun's side. Ye Zun's power keeps growing like a malevolent avalanche.

ep 30: At Ye Zun's bidding, Ya Qing hacks the SID and releases information, undermining their public reputation, turning all of Haixing against them. This is an attack on their status and also a strategic move to weaken/hamper the SID in doing their jobs and supporting Shen Wei to do his. And even Cong Bo can't put all the worms back in the can.

ep 37: There's still one last hope: the Hallows. But when they find the Guardian Lantern, the wick is missing, and when Shen Wei goes in search of it, in Dixing -- a final shot at finding an alternative solution to the Threat of Ye Zun -- he's ambushed and tortured.

eps 37-40: There are no more options open to him. It's too late. The only thing he can do now is to make one last, desperate move.

Questions
Does this way of looking at things work for you?
What have I missed?
I ran out of time to look at C) the reasons Shen Wei doesn't just go and blow up Ye Zun as soon as he realises he can use his light-energy contamination, but I think the show does a pretty good job of setting out all the things he has to lose/live for. What do you think?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Ohhhh, what a fascinating write-up! I don't think I've ever felt the Threat TM that Ye Zun poses this viscerally, watching the show he always felt a bit goofy to me (mostly because I just. Cannot take Zhu Jiu seriously, and then Ye Zun is just as overly dramatic Villain TM in continuation). You've done a great job establishing both why Ye Zun is a threat and what they tried doing to stop him pre-finale!

I think, and I'm still analyzing my own feelings on this, B) also demonstrates why I keep feeling like they should've done *more*. It's a very neat list of set-backs! And showing that every victory has a price, that they're racing against the clock. But the SID is very reactive rather than pro-active, or at least it feels that way to me?

The problem I have, I think, is that they bet it all on the Hallows, on getting to the Hallows first, on being able to use the Hallows to contain Ye Zun even though it's proven again and again that they can't control them, that the Hallows have their own plan (like ZYL trying to use them to lead him to the other Hallows never ends up quite working. They're only helpful when *they* choose to be, the Dial shows him the Awl, they give him visions at time-sensitive intervals, they send him to the past, they bury both twins).

By betting everything on the Hallows, and then not able to find the Wick in time for the final confrontation, they lose. They don't seem to have /any/ back-up plans, it almost always feels like they're reacting to Ye Zun's attacks rather than being pro-active, and even Shen Wei's failsafe is an accident of healing ZYL from an injury.

They manage to secure the Sundial, setting the plot into motion. Episode 3-12 is a race of who gets to the Awl first, which they win, but Ye Zun grabs the Brush first by converting a grieving Wang Xiangyang to his cause. The Lantern was always at SID HQ which *throws up hands* I guess?? So in terms of getting the Hallows as their Plan A, it works pretty well before they realize that one Hallow is basically Broken and thus not useable (but apparently good enough to create a wormhole anyway? *shrugs*) Except for the lost Wick, the hunt for the Hallows is actually in the SID's favour, overall.

And then it just. Doesn't pay off because Lantern broken. It makes me wonder, what if someone had sacrificed their soul before the final confrontation? Would that simply enable Ye Zun to eat them up, like he tries to? That's definitely a worrying threat because it would make him even more powerful and they're already struggling. The SID's fighters managed to hold their own against him for a decent while, if Shen Wei had been less injured by the double capture-torture sessions, maybe together they could have beat him/killed him? Why did Shen Wei go alone to Dixing *again* even though they knew Ye Zun had suburned the palace? >.<

Tbf, I think I like the ending? It was one desperate grasping at straws after the other, especially in the final confrontation, trying to fight Ye Zun with their powers, the serum, the Hallows, Shen Wei's sacrifice... it took many attempts to bring him down. And the situation grew bleaker and bleaker in the episodes leading up to it, what with Ye Zun masterfully cutting off the SID's support & taking over Dixing! But also, I think I would've really liked for them to have a strategy going in that was less improvised lol though obviously ZYL is King of Improv. (Also, fuck Zhao Xinci being all "I will do what I can" to help in the ministry and then he does NOTHING it drives me nuts lol)

Sorry I don't think I'm being very coherent :')

So, on the one hand, I agree they show other strategies fail, but in a way those strategies often feel like damage control, rather than an offense the SID makes? the SID is never the one to initiate or counterattack. And that makes me feel like there's options they didn't even think to explore, and the lack of that... that's bothering me, I think.

C) show why the protagonist is reluctant to take that action, ie, the reasons they don't just go out and resolve the problem straight away.

I have Thoughts about this too :D It boils down to:

1) Physical impossibility. While Ye Zun is stuck in the pillar, I don't think Shen Wei can get to him to end him. Exploding the pillar might be an option, but that could simply free Ye Zun to be an unholy terror, so. Risky. The moment Ye Zun leaves his pillar, he ambushes Shen Wei and ties *him* to the pillar instead, and we're already in the endphase at that point.

2) The big brother/guilt argument. I don't actually put much stock in this one, I think Shen Wei makes it clear that he's more than willing to end Ye Zun to protect everyone else, but I suppose you could make an argument that he might've hesitated (specifically in YOHE when he just learned Ye Zun's true identity)

3) Shen Wei is limited in his role. a) While he's OP with his powers, the show goes to lengths to show how limited they are in Haixing + later the light energy contamination slowing him down further.

b) The Regent is a good foil to show how Shen Wei's influence is limited politically, and Ye Zun's manipulations of turning people against him (examplified in HPS fanboy Zhu Jiu turning into HPS hater Zhu Jiu). This leaves Shen Wei's hands tied in a lot of ways to address the unrest in Dixing that Ye Zun makes use of. (Like how we learn he's submitted education reforms a lot but they were denied.)

I think I wanted to make a third sub-point about this but I'm blanking on what it was now, so that's gotta suffice xD

4) Ye Zun's Irrationality: Shen Wei isn't aware of the reason Ye Zun hates him so much. He's tried getting through to his brother before, but Ye Zun just spits and spews and monologues at him. Even if he did manage, I think it's questionable how open Ye Zun would be to believe; them both being dead and Ye Zun seeing the unbiased memory take place in this space in between is likely what convinced him so "easily".

Which, I think is actually a decent set of hurdles!

Thank you for making this post, it gave me a lot to think about! (And I'll probably come back to it, too, there's much more juice left in here I think that I just can't untangle rn)

You've done a great job establishing both why Ye Zun is a threat and what they tried doing to stop him pre-finale!

Yay, thank you! I'm really glad this made sense and helped clarify it. Yeah, the tone of the show is often fun and adventurey (thank you, Zhao Yunlan! ♥), and I adore that tone so much, but it can occasionally trick me into thinking the stakes aren't as high as they actually are. I lose sight of how incredibly badly things could go if Ye Zun was left unchecked.

B) also demonstrates why I keep feeling like they should've done *more*. It's a very neat list of set-backs! And showing that every victory has a price, that they're racing against the clock. But the SID is very reactive rather than pro-active, or at least it feels that way to me?

Oh, good point. Hmm, I wonder how much that's a function of them being cops. Like, their official role is reactive -- investigate crimes, apprehend culprits. So maybe that's why they don't fully transition into proactiveness soon enough? And the attacks are coming thick and fast pretty much from the blindness arc on, I think. Also, a big part of the SID's MO and ethos is to encourage people to switch to the right path, so maybe they're hoping, for at least some of the time, that their enemy can be converted to an ally. (It works for Cong Bo, Ya Qing, and even Sha Ya to an extent.)

But Ye Zun is beyond reason, and he becomes vastly powerful really fast. Once he's taken the palace, what can the SID do -- invade and conquer Dixing? Even if they stood a chance at that, it's not the right answer. Ditto closing the gates, which is the only other option I can think of to protect Haixing. Hmm...

The problem I have, I think, is that they bet it all on the Hallows, on getting to the Hallows first, on being able to use the Hallows to contain Ye Zun even though it's proven again and again that they can't control them, that the Hallows have their own plan

That's true. I wonder if they're hoping that once the Hallows are all together, they'll function more predictably. Or at least be on their side!

By betting everything on the Hallows, and then not able to find the Wick in time for the final confrontation, they lose. They don't seem to have /any/ back-up plans, it almost always feels like they're reacting to Ye Zun's attacks rather than being pro-active, and even Shen Wei's failsafe is an accident of healing ZYL from an injury.

I like to think it's an accident which he nurtures and maintains, rather than trying to heal. There is intentionality there, even if it started out as an unintended side-effect of the dial exchange. But yeah, if he hadn't had that contamination, what would he have done? How (badly) would things have gone then? Would he have found a way to get it? (Or did he do it deliberately during the Sundial exchange??)

it works pretty well before they realize that one Hallow is basically Broken and thus not useable (but apparently good enough to create a wormhole anyway? *shrugs*

That's consistent for all the wormholes. I think it needs the wick to be a sky-illuminating power source, but not to do other, lesser stuff? (I'm not sure we ever actually see it with a wick, though presumably it has one when it's sent to Dixing that first time.)

Except for the lost Wick, the hunt for the Hallows is actually in the SID's favour, overall.

Which maybe is why they stick with that strategy. It feels like it's working? And it has a decent chance of success. (These are people who stayed in a hospital with a bomb in the optimistic confidence they could defuse it in 3 minutes, after all. *g*)

And then it just. Doesn't pay off because Lantern broken.

True, though there is ZYL's gambit with putting a dark-energy bullet in place of the wick, which weakens Ye Zun and helps to defeat him.

The SID's fighters managed to hold their own against him for a decent while, if Shen Wei had been less injured by the double capture-torture sessions, maybe together they could have beat him/killed him?

I don't know. It didn't look to me like Ye Zun was taking much damage at all from that fight. The SID was keeping him busy, but the only thing that broke through his guard and actually hurt him was the Guardian Lantern exploding, iirc.

Why did Shen Wei go alone to Dixing *again* even though they knew Ye Zun had suburned the palace? >.<

Because he was trying to protect the others. Because he knew if he was captured (couldn't find the wick, couldn't escape Ye Zun's people or his clutches), he could put his contingency plan into effect.

But also, I think I would've really liked for them to have a strategy going in that was less improvised lol though obviously ZYL is King of Improv.

Ha, yeah, I can see that. More of a plan would have been nice. Now I'm wondering exactly when Zhao Yunlan came up with the bullet-in-Lantern idea -- whether that was part of his strategy from the start, and the show just didn't tell us for the surprise value.

Sorry I don't think I'm being very coherent :')

Right back atcha. :-)

I really like your answers to C -- thanks so much for laying them out, those are all excellent reasons why Shen Wei's plans can't work until the final showdown. (Amusingly, they're totally different from what I would have written if I'd had time to make a list. :-)

2) The big brother/guilt argument. I don't actually put much stock in this one, I think Shen Wei makes it clear that he's more than willing to end Ye Zun to protect everyone else

Agreed. I don't think Shen Wei really lets himself see Ye Zun as his didi until Ye Zun's been defeated. The stakes are just too high.

The Regent is a good foil to show how Shen Wei's influence is limited politically, and Ye Zun's manipulations of turning people against him (examplified in HPS fanboy Zhu Jiu turning into HPS hater Zhu Jiu). This leaves Shen Wei's hands tied in a lot of ways to address the unrest in Dixing that Ye Zun makes use of. (Like how we learn he's submitted education reforms a lot but they were denied.)

Oh, yes, that's a really excellent point. *clicks Kudos button*

Ye Zun's Irrationality: Shen Wei isn't aware of the reason Ye Zun hates him so much. He's tried getting through to his brother before, but Ye Zun just spits and spews and monologues at him. Even if he did manage, I think it's questionable how open Ye Zun would be to believe

100% agreed.

FWIW, my answers to C were actually internal motivation reasons: Shen Wei looking for another solution because he wants to keep his life as the Envoy who protects and influences things in Dixing, as Professor Shen, as Zhao Yunlan's partner and lover, as a member of the SID (as he becomes more integral to the team), and as Li Qian's mentor and Cheng Xinyan's friend, etc. Those are the real sacrifices he makes at the end, not just his physical life, and although he doesn't hesitate to pay that price, if there'd been another way to guarantee the safety of both worlds (that didn't involve throwing someone else under the bus), he would have grabbed it with both hands.

Anyway -- so glad this offered food for thought. Thanks for your awesome comment!

Edited (forgot an important thing in the list of internal motivations *facepalm*) 2022-07-04 00:57 (UTC)

Oh, good point. Hmm, I wonder how much that's a function of them being cops. Like, their official role is reactive -- investigate crimes, apprehend culprits. So maybe that's why they don't fully transition into proactiveness soon enough?

I kept thinking about this after posting my response, and there's actually at least one example where they *do* go after the bad guys – the trap they set for Zhu Jiu, with cutting the city's electricity. And I wish they had tried something similar with Ye Zun? Although granted, a lot was happening in the second half of the drama, especially later episodes, they only had so much space but still. It would've been nice :') (and tbf idk what this trap would have looked like. The Hallows as bait seems obvious, if the time travel hadn't happened they could've turned Ye Zun pretending to be Shen Wei into a reverse trick, where it turns out ZYL knew and was luring Ye Zun inside because they had some gadget to incapacitate him...? 🤔)

I like to think it's an accident which he nurtures and maintains, rather than trying to heal. There is intentionality there, even if it started out as an unintended side-effect of the dial exchange.

Agree!

True, though there is ZYL's gambit with putting a dark-energy bullet in place of the wick, which weakens Ye Zun and helps to defeat him.

...you know, the ending was so distressing I forgot that detail, tho I remember him using the Awl to split Ye Zun open 😂 another great show of Zhao Yunlan's improvisation skills and Cleverness!

I don't know. It didn't look to me like Ye Zun was taking much damage at all from that fight. The SID was keeping him busy, but the only thing that broke through his guard and actually hurt him was the Guardian Lantern exploding, iirc.

Fair point! It worked in stalling him, at least. Though I do like them showing off all those attempts, it hammers home how desperate the situation is.

Because he was trying to protect the others.

Shen Wei in a nutshell :') and I might complain because I'm Emotional about his being all beat up and tortured, but I love him for it, too. (I wonder, since I haven't watched it in over a year now, what the concrete plan there was. That might sway my logical brain if not my broken heart...)

Amusingly, they're totally different from what I would have written if I'd had time to make a list. :-)

Oh! I hadn't really considered internal motivations, huh. I'm also not quite sure I see the correlation even now? (Tho that might be because it's 3:30am xD) unless you mean it's the reason he doesn't immediately jump to suicide-murder? I guess I'm presuming an alternative solution that doesn't necessarily involve self-sacrifice, since we're talking beginning of the show so there wasn't light contamination and it didn't feel nearly as desperate a situation yet :') tho the easiest alternate solution I can see (and have seen in fic) is "talking sense into Ye Zun" about the abandonment issues, which, we agree wouldn't work easily *g*

And yes! Sacrificing his life, the connections and friendships and love he's found... That's what's so gut-wrenching about the ending imo <3

I kept thinking about this after posting my response, and there's actually at least one example where they *do* go after the bad guys – the trap they set for Zhu Jiu, with cutting the city's electricity.

Yes, though they're forced into that by Zhu Jiu kidnapping Lao Chu, Xiao Guo and Ye Huo, and demanding the Hallows as ransom. And it only works because they've figured out Zhu Jiu's power -- before that, they could barely touch him.

The Hallows as bait seems obvious, if the time travel hadn't happened they could've turned Ye Zun pretending to be Shen Wei into a reverse trick, where it turns out ZYL knew and was luring Ye Zun inside because they had some gadget to incapacitate him...?

If they could come up with a gadget like that, then they could use it at any point, I think? And then the story kind of falls apart. :-) And if they'd tried and failed, that might have been too much like the Zhu Jiu & Zheng Yi kidnapping/reveal arc? But I know what you mean -- it's hard to get one's head around just how slippery and unstoppable Ye Zun is.

I was listening to yet another WEx episode just now (stop me if this is getting annoying *g*), and they were talking about how if you show the villain's POV, you can lose tension, because the reader knows what they're planning. And that made me go, Oh! The show didn't want us to know in advance about Shen Wei's contingency plan! They reminded us repeatedly about his weakness/contamination, but how he plans to use it is a twist, an eleventh-hour snatching-victory-from-defeat, and we get to see Zhao Yunlan join the dots in the moment. (If we knew in advance and ZYL didn't, that moment would lose a lot of its impact, I think?) Similarly, with the bullet in the Lantern, they let us think Ye Zun getting the Lantern was a disaster rather than a plan. Which means the show is trading a sense of Our Protagonists Are Being Strategic for the tension of "things are going terribly wrong, argh." Which... narratively, I think you can choose either one -- and it's hard to have both. (Especially since, once you've told a plan, you usually have to make it fail.)

another great show of Zhao Yunlan's improvisation skills and Cleverness!

Yes! And determination. I love it. :D

Fair point! It worked in stalling him, at least. Though I do like them showing off all those attempts, it hammers home how desperate the situation is.

Yes, exactly. This!

I'm also not quite sure I see the correlation even now? (Tho that might be because it's 3:30am xD) unless you mean it's the reason he doesn't immediately jump to suicide-murder?

Yes, that's what I mean. Once Shen Wei realises a) Ye Zun is potentially a threat to the safety of the SID/the world, and b) Shen Wei can use himself as a weapon, why doesn't he march down to Dixing and just taunt Ye Zun into eating him before anyone else gets hurt? It's not far off what he was talking about doing in YOHE, with his "I don't want any more of my brothers to sacrifice themselves", so what's different now? What is the narrative force that makes him look for other options?

And yes! Sacrificing his life, the connections and friendships and love he's found... That's what's so gut-wrenching about the ending imo <3

Yes! The show has done such a good job of showing us what's important to him. Similarly with Zhao Yunlan. *sobs*

Edited (tweaked for clarity) 2022-07-04 04:56 (UTC)

Yes, though they're forced into that by Zhu Jiu kidnapping Lao Chu, Xiao Guo and Ye Huo, and demanding the Hallows as ransom. And it only works because they've figured out Zhu Jiu's power -- before that, they could barely touch him.

Very true! Which is probably why I didn't think of it in the first place, it still feels somewhat more reactive than proactive :D but I liked that trap and them tricking Zhu Jiu *lots* and I want that for Ye Zun, too xD

If they could come up with a gadget like that, then they could use it at any point, I think? And then the story kind of falls apart. :-) And if they'd tried and failed, that might have been too much like the Zhu Jiu & Zheng Yi kidnapping/reveal arc? But I know what you mean -- it's hard to get one's head around just how slippery and unstoppable Ye Zun is.

Tbf, if this were to happen in canon with the canonical ending, obviously the attempt needs to fail <3 I think it would emphasize Ye Zun's slipperiness nicely and give Lin Jing and his gadgets a bit more raison d'être, plus giving us another chance to fawn over Zhao Yunlan's cleverness xD

(also I am now thinking... if the gadget needed to pull the power of the dark energy field, maybe reversing it to contain Ye Zun, the shield not allowing his power *out* and surrounding him like a bubble... then it would make sense for them having to lure Ye Zun inside. But the issue being of course that Lin Jing is currently the ousted spy and not at the SID... and it would leave the Hallows vulnerable... hmm. I think there's something to it there, though, I might use this for a time travel fix-it yet xD)

and they were talking about how if you show the villain's POV, you can lose tension, because the reader knows what they're planning. And that made me go, Oh! The show didn't want us to know in advance about Shen Wei's contingency plan! [...] (If we knew in advance and ZYL didn't, that moment would lose a lot of its impact, I think?) Similarly, with the bullet in the Lantern, they let us think Ye Zun getting the Lantern was a disaster rather than a plan.

Agree! And I don't think those are plans that I would want to know as the audience ahead of time? They work great as twists, and it suits the characters to keep them secret (Shen Wei because it's his failsafe, and it's hinted at enough to establish he's planning it, but only by the end is he desperate enough to use it when all else fails; with ZYL I would argue it's an improvised bit of cleverness, running out of options and knowing they can't allow Ye Zun to absorb the Hallows, so booby-trapping the Lantern feels like a split second decision, especially considering how hurt he is at that point - if it wasn't I'd argue he'd done it earlier when they realized the Wick was nowhere to be found)

Which means the show is trading a sense of Our Protagonists Are Being Strategic for the tension of "things are going terribly wrong, argh." Which... narratively, I think you can choose either one -- and it's hard to have both. (Especially since, once you've told a plan, you usually have to make it fail.)

Hm, good point! Imo, I'd just have liked to have both cakes and eat them too? XD Let my clever babies strategize, build a smart plan, have it fail, and then do all that catastrophe improv and contingency plan coming into effect. We can cut one of the superfluous and confusing 'this is how the Lantern will be lit' ZXC scenes, there's too many of them and they felt partially contradictory and janky (granted probably due to last minute edits when they needed to adjust the ending, but still). Or you know, one of those ~mysterious ZXC scenes that implied he was gonna do Something and that led nowhere, that would've also been fine (as much as I love silver fox Zhaddy xD)

Yes, that's what I mean. Once Shen Wei realises a) Ye Zun is potentially a threat to the safety of the SID/the world, and b) Shen Wei can use himself as a weapon, why doesn't he march down to Dixing and just taunt Ye Zun into eating him before anyone else gets hurt? It's not far off what he was talking about doing in YOHE, with his "I don't want any more of my brothers to sacrifice themselves", so what's different now? What is the narrative force that makes him look for other options?

Valid! I think this goes to show how different our thinking starts out, I tend to have trouble with emotionality/internal motivations and go to external circumstances first with only vague internal motivators (love, hate, greed, e.g.) while you zeroed in on Shen Wei's personal reasons :D That's what's makes these discussions so fun to me, I come away with a complexer picture of the whole <3

Warning for pre-breakfast abuse of parentheses. :-)

and I want that for Ye Zun, too xD

Heh. Fair. I guess I feel like the SID is basically under siege in the second half of the show. ZYL has sent Lin Jing to keep an eye on the DoS lab, so they don't have the same resources at their disposal -- and I doubt it's a narrative accident that Lin Jing gets eaten in episode 36. If he'd still been around when they found the final Hallow, there could potentially have been a digression where he tried to rig them up somehow or make a new wick (...though he couldn't make sense of the Sundial on its own, so maybe not, and also, time is running out, Ye Zun is starting his invasion, etc). I don't know what that would have done to the building tension...

But yeah, having a very active villain does risk making your protags seem less proactive, as they spend all their energy putting out fires and/or under attack. The SID is brought to an exhausted standstill by just one of Ye Zun's followers (the Master of Nightmares). So I guess it's a balancing act -- you need the threat to be extreme and the SID overwhelmed in order to justify Shen Wei's extreme measures to counter it. Perhaps it's inevitable that balance is going to read differently to different viewers?

And, hmm, (moving away from narrative structure and into characterisation) I think Shen Wei is focused on the Hallows for the reasons Trobadora lists below, and I suspect ZYL and the SID quite reasonably trust the Envoy to take the lead on this? (Aside from that, I think ZYL really does hope, right up until Shen Wei is eaten, to be able to reason his way out of disaster, using the Hallows as backup. His first encounter with Ye Zun starts off as a philosophical debate, after all, and they did eventually convince Ya Qing.)

I think there's something to it there, though, I might use this for a time travel fix-it yet xD)

*pompoms* :-)

and knowing they can't allow Ye Zun to absorb the Hallows

Is he trying to absorb them or use them? *is vague on this point, oops*

with ZYL I would argue it's an improvised bit of cleverness, running out of options and knowing they can't allow Ye Zun to absorb the Hallows, so booby-trapping the Lantern feels like a split second decision, especially considering how hurt he is at that point - if it wasn't I'd argue he'd done it earlier when they realized the Wick was nowhere to be found

Ha, this sent me down a rabbithole (and there went half my morning). There's a tiny flashback of him putting the bullet in the Lantern in ep 39, at 34:09, and I honestly can't tell if it's in Dixing or at the SID. There are giant cogs, and it has a pretty Dixing aesthetic, but I don't know if we see that wall anywhere else?

In the flashback, ZYL seems businesslike but not super-flustered, and he's not visibly hurt. And going by the timeline, he has to have done it before he leaves the Lantern with the bartender, because Ye Zun walks in on him getting it back (after ZYL leads Ye Zun to the bar).

Anyway, what's striking to me is that, even in flashback, we don't see ZYL preparing the booby-trap in an unambiguously Haixing place. He could have done it in his office at the SID, or in the Yashou cave before they travelled to Dixing. But clearly the narrative is more interested in giving the general impression of "comes up with brilliant plans on the fly" than "plans ahead." (I do love that about ZYL. A lot of my utter glee about the blindness arc and the YOHE arc is how cheerfully he rolls with it.)

We can cut one of the superfluous and confusing 'this is how the Lantern will be lit' ZXC scenes, there's too many of them and they felt partially contradictory and janky

*koff* Zhang Shi, not Zhao Xinci. *g* And isn't there just a partial explanation, and then a flashback to the full explanation? Or is there more than that? There's a couple of mentions of it with Guo Changcheng (ep 16, I think, and when Changcheng's on the run with the Hallows), but I think those are foreshadowing. We do need to know in advance that lighting the Lantern with a person's energy is a thing that can happen for it to make sense at the end.

I think this goes to show how different our thinking starts out, I tend to have trouble with emotionality/internal motivations and go to external circumstances first with only vague internal motivators (love, hate, greed, e.g.) while you zeroed in on Shen Wei's personal reasons :D That's what's makes these discussions so fun to me, I come away with a complexer picture of the whole <3

Yes! It's really interesting seeing another perspective. I suspect a lot of our differences re the planning come down to this, too. <3

Ha, this sent me down a rabbithole (and there went half my morning). There's a tiny flashback of him putting the bullet in the Lantern in ep 39, at 34:09, and I honestly can't tell if it's in Dixing or at the SID. There are giant cogs, and it has a pretty Dixing aesthetic, but I don't know if we see that wall anywhere else?

You know, I probably shouldn't debate on the later episodes much, I was at that point binge-watching for hours and sleep-deprived and emotionally wrecked by the show xD They all blur together and I definitely missed some details, and all my scene rewatches have been earlier episodes (except for YOHE. I do love YOHE. Like, a lot.) So. Totally missed this detail, my bad ^^" (and imo it looks like the backside of the giant clock in the palace? Tho it could also be the clocktower up in Haixing, but why would ZYL be there in the first place...?) Okay, so less improvised than I assumed! Yay to more planning :D

But clearly the narrative is more interested in giving the general impression of "comes up with brilliant plans on the fly" than "plans ahead." (I do love that about ZYL. A lot of my utter glee about the blindness arc and the YOHE arc is how cheerfully he rolls with it.)

He's very, very good at it! And I love that they show moments of it, I would take a hundred, please xD (for the record, even if it's improvised/on the fly planning, it scratches the itch of Protags Being Clever for me, the same itch that makes me want a strategy session xD)

*koff* Zhang Shi, not Zhao Xinci. *g*

Is it, tho? I feel like it's not always clear by the end, they seem to almost fuse once they reach the same-goal endphase ;) but yeah, fair, Zhang Shi is the one who actually knows this stuff. And idk, I remember being discontent with what is explained the first time and in the flashback, because it felt like it contradicted itself? But like I said above, I have very hazy recollections at best of the details so I'm not gonna die on this hill xD

We do need to know in advance that lighting the Lantern with a person's energy is a thing that can happen for it to make sense at the end.

I feel like it got mentioned so often so we absolutely couldn't miss it, it started annoying me ^^° and in theory I like making GCC the bait-and-switch sacrifice, setting the audience up to expect him to be the one to die and then having ZYL pull the ultimate self sacrifice instead. It suits their characters and ZYL's leader position (and lbr GCC wouldn't have hesitated, to save people)

Yes! It's really interesting seeing another perspective. I suspect a lot of our differences re the planning come down to this, too. <3

Likely! I'm not unhappy with the canon, per se, it absolutely hooked me and dragged me along for the ride to the point I forewent sleeping in favour of bingeing the last 15 or so episodes xD I just also like my competence porn and my faves being clever :') and I feel like some of that was missing, in favour of other things happening, although I agree especially towards the end there was just. Too much happening to allow much space for more than reacting and damage control and desperate gambles. Once ZYL comes back from YOHE, that's pretty much it, no time to plot and plan anymore.

(also sorry, I'm answering yours out of order whoops. I had to write these thoughts down while reading before I forgot, lemme scroll back up to the beginning)

I guess I feel like the SID is basically under siege in the second half of the show. ZYL has sent Lin Jing to keep an eye on the DoS lab, so they don't have the same resources at their disposal

Agree! It's very Divide and Conquer by that point, and you made a good list of ways Ye Zun cripples the SID from doing its job properly (nevermind the government kneecapping them instead of helping *grumbles*) I suppose before YOHE but after the blindness arc would be a good point to bring it up? But then again, they're all still chasing the Hallows at that point to avoid them falling into Ye Zun's hands and Ye Zun being completely released from his prison, so that definitely has priorities. And they have no reason to doubt the Hallows won't work (and once Ye Zun is free, you've already listed how they are fighting against rising odds). Still, gonna insist it would've been cool :D (even just a quick aside of ZYL pausing Shen Wei, just looking at each other, a half-stated 'what do we do if...' and pregnant pause, maybe a 'we'll cross that bridge when we get to it'.) But hey, that's what fic is for, eh? ;)

But yeah, having a very active villain does risk making your protags seem less proactive, as they spend all their energy putting out fires and/or under attack.

Tbf to canon, the way they go about putting out all those fires is very satisfying! And I guess Lin Jing is being proactive eavesdropping on Ye Zun, and he gets eaten for his efforts *g* And I think the escalating threat is actually good writing, especially since this is a tragedy, ending badly for our heroes. The final sacrifices would look very stupid if it felt like they could've subdued Ye Zun easily.

I think Shen Wei is focused on the Hallows for the reasons Trobadora lists below, and I suspect ZYL and the SID quite reasonably trust the Envoy to take the lead on this? (Aside from that, I think ZYL really does hope, right up until Shen Wei is eaten, to be able to reason his way out of disaster, using the Hallows as backup. His first encounter with Ye Zun starts off as a philosophical debate, after all, and they did eventually convince Ya Qing.)

Agree! HPS is the expert, them following his lead on this is definitely reasonable. And like I mentioned above, I think it makes sense to keep the Hallows out of Ye Zun's hands, even if they can't use them against him, which they don't know at this point and past evidence points to them activating around him to put him into pillars so. Valid assumption.

Hmm, I wonder about ZYL's take on Ye Zun. What an interesting point, that it starts out as a philosophical debate! That gives the table flip scene a different vibe (tho I can't remember if Shen Wei was eaten by that point lol). I always thought Ye Zun wanted to play domestic with his brother's boyfriend, just to show he could, as a power play, and enjoying that he can force ZYL to play along (which imo was why ZYL /didn't/ and flipped the table, esp if Shen Wei is dead at this point, he's mad fucking angry at Ye Zun and if Shen Wei's inside Ye Zun's stomach, he's also suicidally reckless at that point). Does Ye Zun being Shen Wei's brother come into consideration? But also, Ye Zun killed Lao Li, Wang Zheng and Sang Zan already when they're in Dixing, and that's Zhao Yunlan's people, so I'm not sure I agree that he's all too ready to forgive. On the other other hand, if it meant putting an end to the destruction, I could see ZYL swallowing his misgivings and allowing Ye Zun to "convert" to their side. He might yet still face justice for his crimes, after all, but a ceasefire at least allows them to regroup at the very least, and ZYL is a good leader and knows how fragile and injured everyone is at the moment. Hm.

Is he trying to absorb them or use them? *is vague on this point, oops*

Good question! Ye Zun does say something along the lines of "Guardian Lantern, your power... give it to me!" shortly before the flashback you screenshotted, but he doesn't do the vore-power sucking, so I'm not sure? (is it a different moment where he opens wide and has dark energy sucking into his mouth? I feel like that happened, but maybe it was earlier/later, and had something about the Lantern not being lit? *scratches head* I think ZYL was still tied to the pillar at that point...) I might be mixing those two up!

and imo it looks like the backside of the giant clock in the palace? Tho it could also be the clocktower up in Haixing, but why would ZYL be there in the first place...?

I don't think it can be either of those. He isn't alone in the palace at any point. He first arrives with Xiao Guo and Butler Wu's son, and hurt!Shen Wei rescues them, then they flee into the streets for the "Who hurt you? I'll kill them" conversation. I think ZYL must have planted the bullet after that, after seeing the state Shen Wei is in. The next time we see him, he arrives from off-screen and gives the other Hallows to Xiao Guo (ep 38, 32:56). He seems to have booby-trapped the Lantern and left it at the bar in the interim.

(Also, the clock in the palace is like lace -- I don't think it has a back like that? Must be some other random more industrial-looking Dixing machinery, I think.)

for the record, even if it's improvised/on the fly planning, it scratches the itch of Protags Being Clever for me, the same itch that makes me want a strategy session xD

:D (Ah, this makes me go: ohhh, wasn't their strategy session the "where do we look for the wick?" scene, just before they all split up? I think it was.)

Is it, tho? I feel like it's not always clear by the end, they seem to almost fuse once they reach the same-goal endphase ;)

There are a few scenes where I'm not 100% sure who's talking, but mostly I think they have very different agendas? They do team up ~~to protect Sunnydale~~, but I feel like a 10k-year-old being is always going to have a different perspective... and Zhao Xinci is obviously a lot more pro-human/everyone else is threat.

it absolutely hooked me and dragged me along for the ride to the point I forewent sleeping in favour of bingeing the last 15 or so episodes xD

Wow! That's epic! :D

(Whereas I kind of slowed down towards the end, because I didn't want it to end.) (And tbh, I felt the Chu Shuzhi dream eps dragged a little. I didn't like not know what was real, and there was a tragic lack of SW/ZYL interaction on my screen, all while the show was running out of time. There are plenty of moments I enjoy in those eps, but they're probably my least favourite as episodes.)

Once ZYL comes back from YOHE, that's pretty much it, no time to plot and plan anymore.

Yes, though they do try to do damage control re the SID info leaks/general attitudes in Haixing, with ZYL's APB (which incorporates a secret message to Lin Jing, telling him to steal the Hallows from the DoS lab).

even just a quick aside of ZYL pausing Shen Wei, just looking at each other, a half-stated 'what do we do if...' and pregnant pause, maybe a 'we'll cross that bridge when we get to it'.

Ha, I'm actually kind of glad Shen Wei was spared that, myself, given his contingency plan. *pets him*

But hey, that's what fic is for, eh? ;)

Absolutely!

And I guess Lin Jing is being proactive eavesdropping on Ye Zun, and he gets eaten for his efforts *g*

Actually, I think the eavesdropping happens electronically after he's eaten. Ya Qing kidnaps him off the street and insults him, he tries to drug her and surreptitiously sets the recording going, and then Ye Zun shows up and eats him before getting caught on tape talking about getting rid of humans and Yashou alike. *pets Lin Jing*

And I think the escalating threat is actually good writing, especially since this is a tragedy, ending badly for our heroes. The final sacrifices would look very stupid if it felt like they could've subdued Ye Zun easily.

Yes, agreed!

And like I mentioned above, I think it makes sense to keep the Hallows out of Ye Zun's hands

Oh, excellent point! It's not just needing to use them, but needing to stop Ye Zun using them! I don't think I've properly considered that before, and yeah, makes a ton of sense.

That gives the table flip scene a different vibe (tho I can't remember if Shen Wei was eaten by that point lol).

Yes. Shen Wei is dead, and Zhao Yunlan is devastated. Ye Zun offers ZYL whatever he wants, and ZYL keeps saying, "I want you to die." Which makes Ye Zun flip the table. (It's not ZYL who does that.)

But also, Ye Zun killed Lao Li, Wang Zheng and Sang Zan already when they're in Dixing, and that's Zhao Yunlan's people, so I'm not sure I agree that he's all too ready to forgive. On the other other hand, if it meant putting an end to the destruction, I could see ZYL swallowing his misgivings and allowing Ye Zun to "convert" to their side. He might yet still face justice for his crimes, after all, but a ceasefire at least allows them to regroup at the very least, and ZYL is a good leader and knows how fragile and injured everyone is at the moment. Hm.

Yeah, I think up until Shen Wei is eaten, ZYL would be absolutely willing to resolve this by Ye Zun surrendering/converting, and the Envoy dispensing appropriate justice somehow. I mean, it's not likely, because Ye Zun is megalomaniacal and will not listen, but it would stop more people being hurt. ZYL doesn't have to forgive him or like him for that to be true.

After Shen Wei is eaten, ZYL just wants him to die die die.

is it a different moment where he opens wide and has dark energy sucking into his mouth? I feel like that happened, but maybe it was earlier/later, and had something about the Lantern not being lit? *scratches head*

I'm not sure what bit you mean? IIRC, there's a bit where the world is being sucked into his forehead wound, but that's not voluntary.

Yeah, I think up until Shen Wei is eaten, ZYL would be absolutely willing to resolve this by Ye Zun surrendering/converting, and the Envoy dispensing appropriate justice somehow. I mean, it's not likely, because Ye Zun is megalomaniacal and will not listen, but it would stop more people being hurt. ZYL doesn't have to forgive him or like him for that to be true.

Yeah, 100% agreed with that!

why I keep feeling like they should've done *more*. It's a very neat list of set-backs! And showing that every victory has a price, that they're racing against the clock. But the SID is very reactive rather than pro-active, or at least it feels that way to me?

I guess I don’t really see what they could have done, proactively, beyond trying to gain the Hallows which they know can stop Ye Zun … They don’t have anything that works. Obviously you could invent something, but wouldn’t that essentially mean introducing a new McGuffin?

They don’t have anything that works. Obviously you could invent something, but wouldn’t that essentially mean introducing a new McGuffin?

Hm, true! I feel like they should have more Dixingren-suppressant tech like idk handcuffs (did they have special handcuffs for Zhu Jiu or is that fanon? I can't recall), so some way to lure Ye Zun out, separate him from his underlings (or take those underlings out of the game), dogpile him, snap those cuffs on?

Granted, the success rate would be miniscule, but I would've liked at least some discussion of these options, even if they end up discarding them :D or the implication that they're working out a battle plan (one of those nifty white-boards with a lot of different plans crossed out maybe). I know they can't cover every possibility and the script-writers did the best they could, probably, and there's always a choice in what to cover and what not so something else might have suffered if they had thought through all of these (and I have the benefit of hindsight and nitpicking obviously XD)

You're right tho, focussing on the Hallows is what the plot set up so far and so it needs to pay off. I'm not sure I'm entirely satisfied with the amount of pay-off for what they build them up to? ZYL does use the Awl and Ye Zun trying to eat the Hallows is what enables them to defeat him, but. Eh. Not 100% sold on all that. (ZYL's sacrifice to stabilize Dixing, however, 200% there, that's tragic and well set up, even if parts of it got a little jangled in the last couple episodes with the implication they should sacrifice GCC and then it's ZYL, but I always blame that on the last minute editing they needed to do to fix the ending so xD)

Yeah, I agree it would have been nice to see them strategising! They could even have shown a cryptic strategising session that didn't give much away, setting up at least some of the things they try during the final battle ...

I'm never sure about the handcuffs myself, but personally I feel like if they had more Dixingren-suppressing tech it would alter the balance of power pretty significantly. Haixing could easily incapacitate anyone and take them out of commission, keep them imprisoned etc., without having to involve Dixing at all?

About GCC, my take is that he's just a red herring - the novel has him as the one who lights the Lantern, but there's enough foreshadowing with Zhao Yunlan, and there's the mirroring and matching between him and Shen Wei for their final sacrifices, that I do believe it was always going to be ZYL in the drama.

I feel like if they had more Dixingren-suppressing tech it would alter the balance of power pretty significantly. Haixing could easily incapacitate anyone and take them out of commission, keep them imprisoned etc., without having to involve Dixing at all?

Oh, good point! They wouldn't really need HPS's help as much either in capturing the runaways in that case.

About GCC, my take is that he's just a red herring - the novel has him as the one who lights the Lantern, but there's enough foreshadowing with Zhao Yunlan, and there's the mirroring and matching between him and Shen Wei for their final sacrifices, that I do believe it was always going to be ZYL in the drama.

Or maybe have the implication as a nod to the novel - imo, if it was Zhao Xinci's choice, he would've sacrificed GCC, but Zhao Yunlan isn't his father, he won't sacrifice someone else if he can do it himself, and this last self sacrifice is the ultimate evidence of that difference. And iirc the original ending had ZYL stuck down in Dixing because he lit the Lantern, right? So yeah, it was always supposed to be ZYL (but the execution of that set-up was still a bit. Convoluted in the last couple episodes from what I recall, I was very confused and felt *shrugs* guess I'll see? about it as I watched XD. I wonder if that'll be different on my rewatch!)

imo, if it was Zhao Xinci's choice, he would've sacrificed GCC, but Zhao Yunlan isn't his father, he won't sacrifice someone else if he can do it himself, and this last self sacrifice is the ultimate evidence of that difference

Oooh, yes, I never looked at it quite like that before, but 100% agreed!

And iirc the original ending had ZYL stuck down in Dixing because he lit the Lantern, right?

Yeah, as far as I know!

but the execution of that set-up was still a bit. Convoluted in the last couple episodes from what I recall

There were definitely some confusing bits, especially some of the stuff about the Hallows! And it doesn't help that we don't get quite enough info about Zhang Shi to really fully understand his agenda ...

but Zhao Yunlan isn't his father, he won't sacrifice someone else if he can do it himself, and this last self sacrifice is the ultimate evidence of that difference.

Yes, absolutely. Even if ZYL hadn't been dying from the serum and heartbroken from losing Shen Wei, if he could jump into the line of fire for GCC, he totally would have.

They could even have shown a cryptic strategising session that didn't give much away, setting up at least some of the things they try during the final battle ...

I wonder how much ZYL plays his cards close to the chest to avoid having his plans tortured out of anyone else. Plus if they go in all knowing the game plan, then when something goes wrong (eg, Guo Changcheng turns out to be a sleeper agent (not that I think anyone saw that coming)) that could jeopardise what they're trying to do. (Can Ye Zun read minds? If so, that's a good reason not to have a strategy session.)

I think GCC was a red herring, and also, they needed an excuse to explain about lighting the lamp using a person's energy, so we knew it could happen (and would happen, once it turned out the wick was missing).

(Haha, I have no idea how much I'm being reasonable and how much I'm just being defensive on behalf of my beloved show. ;-p)

That's a good point about not giving away their plans! I don't think Ye Zun can read minds directly, but he has powers that can get into someone's head, and something like the Nightmare Master's power is just as dangerous on that front.

Agreed about explaining the Lantern, because the ending had to be set up properly!

(LOL, I feel you, I love this show so much, I want it all to make sense! But most of it genuinely does, to me.)

But most of it genuinely does, to me.

Yes, me too. I'm not naturally a plot person -- I generally skim over that in favour of character and relationship arcs, in my watching of things -- so I have to work a bit to piece it together sometimes, but I'm pretty sure that's more me than the show, since it's true for all but the most self-evident plotty things I watch. I should do more reverse-engineering outlines, to get better at these things.

I really enjoyed reading this post, and the discussion in the comments, too. I don't think I've ever seen a breakdown of the (possible) functions of "middles" of stories before, so I found the ideas you mentioned from the podcast interesting just in themselves, and the way you break down how they work in Guardian makes for a great concrete example of what those story techniques can look like. I agree with

miss_ingno that the narrative has some flaws that sometimes make it hard (for me, at least) to take the main villain/threat very seriously, and having the SID team be more proactive and organized might have helped with that. But I also agree with how you analyzed all the parts of the plot that do work to build up the threat, and Shen Wei's very personal responsibility to deal with it.

I think the stuff in your "A" section builds up in an especially elegant way, and the culmination with the promise he failed to keep is really powerful, because we finally see the sense in which he is (unfair as it may be) responsible -- or at least, we see why Ye Zun feels he's responsible, and we see that Ye Zun's reasons are understandable, even if they're wrong.

This makes me think about a similar set of "middle" bullet points that could be written for the gradual process of finding out what Ye Zun's deal actually is. During the middle part of the drama he keeps giving convoluted and hypocritical "reasons" for what he's doing, and explanations of what he aims to achieve, and we can tell he's targeting Shen Wei, but if I remember, I think we don't really start to get solid clues about his real vendetta until the YOHE episodes, and then it all comes together in the end when we find out how Shen Wei failed to protect him. So the "how is this personal" part of the plot includes questions and reveals about how it's personal from Ye Zun's side, as well.

Edited 2022-07-04 14:28 (UTC)

the narrative has some flaws that sometimes make it hard (for me, at least) to take the main villain/threat very seriously

Huh, that surprises me a bit; I never felt like that myself, but now that you and

miss_ingno both say it I can see that that's where the disconnect is for me, with some takes on the Ye Zun threat that I've seen. Do you mind talking a little more about what makes it hard for you to take him seriously?

This makes me think about a similar set of "middle" bullet points that could be written for the gradual process of finding out what Ye Zun's deal actually is.

Oooh, yes, that's an excellent point!

I can see that that's where the disconnect is for me, with some takes on the Ye Zun threat that I've seen.

Hmm, now I'm curious about what kind of takes on Ye Zun you have in mind, because I wonder if we're talking about different things. I've read very few Ye Zun stories and don't really have a good sense of how he's typically portrayed by the fandom, but I certainly think he's meant to be taken seriously! Apart from parody/humor/crack type stuff, I'd find it very strange to see a fic portray him as if he wasn't a threat.

Do you mind talking a little more about what makes it hard for you to take him seriously?

So, my answer to this got kind of long and might not even exactly address what you were asking about! But here it is anyway. XD

Some of the problem isn't really narrative per se; it partly comes down to the show's limited budget, but also directing choices about how to deal with that. The way the series is filmed makes it hard for me to picture the "war" we keep hearing about, because it seems like the enemy army can't possibly consist of more than a couple dozen people, based on the evidence we see. Ye Zun's "vanguard" turns out to be four people. And it's not like "there's a huge vanguard but we're going to just focus on these four." As far as I can tell, that is literally supposed to be the entire vanguard.

Similarly, a handful of Dixingren standing around in the street is the nearest thing we see to a crowd/mob, and again, it doesn't look like "we're just showing you the tip of the iceberg," it looks like that's really the size of the crowd. So we don't really get a sense of Ye Zun commanding some terrible army -- just a few individual puppets who are all a bit ridiculous and comic-book-villain-y, like Zhu Jiu. They're dangerous in that they do kill people, but they just don't come across as a truly wide-ranging, world-threatening enemy force. In terms of geographical range, their scope seems very limited, especially since (as far as I remember) we never get even the slightest mention or clue about the existence of such things as international travel or foreign cultures. Dragon City is treated as if it were the only place that mattered.

Obviously, the action of the story takes place in Dragon City because that's where the clash happened 10,000 years ago, where Shen Wei was buried, and (I guess?) the only place with portals to Dixing. But for me there isn't enough canonical worldbuilding to make sense of the way Ye Zun is talked about as a threat to Haixing at large. How major a city is Dragon City? Are there other countries in this world? Does Dixing extend underground all over the world? Is Dragon City the only place affected by Dixing's existence? Should there be, I don't know, international conferences about what's going on here, or some kind of attempt at military intervention or something, instead of just Zhao Yunlan's little team trying to singlehandedly save the entire world?

The worldbuilding in Dixing has similar problems, but even more so, I think. We don't really get any information about its size or population, modes of travel or communication, etc., and all we ever see are tiny handfuls of people. The limited numbers of sets and visible Dixingren make sense because of the show's budget, and wouldn't bother me in themselves, but I feel like we need more suggestion, whether via dialogue or props or whatever, of what kind of world is supposed to be out there beyond the little we actually see, so we can get a sense of what's really at stake if Ye Zun comes to power.

And like

miss_ingno said, the way our heroes at the SID react to the threat also feels very local and personal, not large-scale. There don't seem to be any contingency plans, or much organization on the Haixing side. Clearly we're supposed to regard Ye Zun as a serious threat, and I think if you try to write fanfic about him as if he's not, you're misreading the story. I think he has to be interpreted as a threat not just to Dragon City, but to the world. But this is a case where I feel like fic writers have to do more than the show did, add more worldbuilding, give the people of Dixing more presence and agency, show the SID planning more, maybe researching more, doing more behind the scenes, etc., to convey the intended scale.

...Hopefully this doesn't come off as overly critical of the show! Lord knows all the other Cdramas I love best have even bigger budget problems and scale problems and everything else. XD But I guess what I'm saying is that to me, maybe Ye Zun's plot actually feels a bit too personal? I would have liked to see more evidence of how his power and influence extend (or are expected to spread) beyond just the damage we see inflicted on our heroes and their small part of the world.

Hmm, now I'm curious about what kind of takes on Ye Zun you have in mind, because I wonder if we're talking about different things. I've read very few Ye Zun stories and don't really have a good sense of how he's typically portrayed by the fandom, but I certainly think he's meant to be taken seriously!

Yeah, my impression is that some people just not take him seriously as a threat, treating it like it could have easily been resolved, which is not how I see it at all. (And not just because it undermines the gravitas and impact of the ending ...)

But I see what you mean now - thanks for writing it all out like this!

The way the series is filmed makes it hard for me to picture the "war" we keep hearing about, because it seems like the enemy army can't possibly consist of more than a couple dozen people, based on the evidence we see.

Yeah, that's a problem especially with the invasion at the end, and with the YOHE episodes as well, which also suffer from "five people tussling" syndrome. *g* I entirely understand your point there, and I agree that much of it is budget-related. Personally I don't have a problem taking that as, essentially the TV version of a stageplay, with all the associated unrealistic smallness, and mentally scaling it up to what makes sense in context, but I completely agree that it can be distracting sometimes!

it doesn't look like "we're just showing you the tip of the iceberg," it looks like that's really the size of the crowd

Thinking about it, I guess I'm taking it as neither, really, more as a degree of unreality/symbolic representation? I'm just thinking out loud here, puzzling out how my own mental approach works, LOL. I would have loved a more "tip of the iceberg" approach if they couldn't manage an actual crowd - I definitely prefer a more realistic style in general.

So we don't really get a sense of Ye Zun commanding some terrible army -- just a few individual puppets who are all a bit ridiculous and comic-book-villain-y, like Zhu Jiu.

To some degree I'd say the comic book villainy, and other comic book stuff, is built into the whole scenario with the Black-Cloaked Envoy already, and I don't find Zhu Jiu all that ridiculous, but I know he elicits that response in a lot of people. *g* Now that you say it, though, I think part of my own feelings may in fact be genre-related, not just because of the masked superhero aspect but also because "mutants" slots right into that genre in my head, mainly individual people wreaking havoc with their individual weird powers ... I hadn't thought of Guardian's structure in quite those terms before; thank you for making me think about this!

In terms of geographical range, their scope seems very limited, especially since (as far as I remember) we never get even the slightest mention or clue about the existence of such things as international travel or foreign cultures. Dragon City is treated as if it were the only place that mattered.

Yeah, agreed, there's a lot more scope for worldbuilding there, and they could have alluded to a great deal more even if they didn't have the budget to show much.

Obviously, the action of the story takes place in Dragon City because that's where the clash happened 10,000 years ago, where Shen Wei was buried, and (I guess?) the only place with portals to Dixing. But for me there isn't enough canonical worldbuilding to make sense of the way Ye Zun is talked about as a threat to Haixing at large.

Yeah, as far as we know there are only two portals, both created by Ma Gui, and one of them (the one in Snake Yashou territory) was inactive. So the SID and the government departments that deal with such things and the lab researching Dixing powers being in Dragon City makes sense on that front. But there's no ... idk, no intermediate step between "Dragon City" and "the whole planet" when it comes to the stakes - it's incidents endangering individuals in the city, and the city itself, and then suddenly "invasion!" and "planet in danger of collapsing!"

How major a city is Dragon City? Are there other countries in this world? Does Dixing extend underground all over the world? Is Dragon City the only place affected by Dixing's existence?

Those are very good questions, and ones I would have loved to see explored! As far as I can remember, it does say that Dixing's population is far smaller than Haixing's, so Dixing itself probably doesn't extend all that far, but even so, all we ever get to see is a few streets, the palace, a field of ruins, and the volcano. Budget, I know, but damn do I wish they could have really gone wild there!

Should there be, I don't know, international conferences about what's going on here, or some kind of attempt at military intervention or something, instead of just Zhao Yunlan's little team trying to singlehandedly save the entire world?

FWIW, my impression is that the government (which is either the government of one country or a world government, LOL, we don't even know that much!) is keeping knowledge of Dixing very contained, and the ministry in Dragon City is essentially acting on its own. The Haixing lab was an attempt by them to find a way to counteract the (perceived or real) threat, whereas they were all too willing to undermine the SID and get them out of the way when they weren't cooperating the way the Xingdu Bureau wanted, so IMO in the end whatever they'd done it would still have been Zhao Yunlan's little team on their own, just with even more government interference to get around. *g*

I feel like we need more suggestion, whether via dialogue or props or whatever, of what kind of world is supposed to be out there beyond the little we actually see, so we can get a sense of what's really at stake if Ye Zun comes to power.

That would have been lovely! I wonder if part of why Dixing worldbuiding is comparatively thin is because in the original novel, and possibly still in the original script for the drama, it's all supernatural and Dixing isn't Dixing, but literally Hell. Given censorship requirements, all that had to be removed, and they did a brilliant job with making it into aliens and mutants - I really love the additional themes they managed to build into the drama that way, around immigration and bigotry and such - but perhaps something fell by the wayside there in terms of worldbuilding? Idk.

There don't seem to be any contingency plans, or much organization on the Haixing side.

I'm not sure what that would have looked like, tbh, because I feel the SID did everything they could, given that they had very limited resources and were hampered by their own superiors getting in the way of things, and were constantly battered by Ye Zun's attacks even before they reached (supposedly-)global levels ...

But this is a case where I feel like fic writers have to do more than the show did, add more worldbuilding, give the people of Dixing more presence and agency, show the SID planning more, maybe researching more, doing more behind the scenes, etc., to convey the intended scale.

It's certainly easier to do it in fanfic than on TV! *g* But yeah, I very much appreciate it when fic does all that, because I want that, all of it!

But I guess what I'm saying is that to me, maybe Ye Zun's plot actually feels a bit too personal? I would have liked to see more evidence of how his power and influence extend (or are expected to spread) beyond just the damage we see inflicted on our heroes and their small part of the world.

It didn't feel that way to me (because *gestures above re: stageplay and genre and all*), but that makes perfect sense to me. Thank you again for explaining, that's been very helpful to me in thinking things through and understanding where people are coming from!

Yeah, my impression is that some people just not take him seriously as a threat, treating it like it could have easily been resolved

Oh, yeah, no, I definitely don't see it like that! And I agree with your comment elsewhere where you said you can never buy an "easy" solution for Ye Zun. I think the show does clearly convey that nothing less than Shen Wei's final sacrifice would have been enough to either destroy him or redeem him.

Personally I don't have a problem taking that as, essentially the TV version of a stageplay, with all the associated unrealistic smallness, and mentally scaling it up to what makes sense in context

Yeah, that's entirely fair. I guess... a bit of a tangent away from Guardian here, but thinking about it, one reason I enjoy watching older TV shows is because I have no problem treating TV like theater and scaling up in my head when the whole production requires heavy suspension of disbelief. But when I'm watching a newer show with generally good production values, it's much harder for me to avoid taking what we see onscreen as a fairly literal picture of the fictional world. Like, if I'm watching a stage play and the "army" is eight people, I obviously know this is symbolic, and having to mentally supply the idea of a real army feels completely normal. Or if I'm watching a horror B-movie from 1935 and everything is made of styrofoam and the bats are on strings, yeah, it's a bit comical, but I can look past it because that's just the medium. For almost anything filmed later than around the mid 90s, though, the overall production usually just looks so good and so real that whenever something strikes me as fake, it kind of throws me out of the fiction.

With Guardian, the overall comic-book style helps counteract that a bit, because it's not ultra-realistic, and there's a lot of stuff going on where you just have to accept it based on genre conventions, like you said. People with superpowers are doing battle in in capes and masks? Great, yes, more of this please! I can suspend my disbelief about magical glaives all day long. But sometimes the "five people tussling" stuff is just a little too much like a stage play for me, compared to the rest of the show. XD

You make good points about the government stuff (though more government interference might have been interesting!), and yeah, you may be right that Dixing worldbuilding got so little attention because it didn't originally seem like it would be necessary, given the novel. I do really like the direction they went with it to avoid censorship -- what we do get to see of Dixing is really neat. Which is part of why it's disappointing that there isn't more!

It's certainly easier to do it in fanfic than on TV!

Yes, that's very true! Which I guess is part of why we're all here. :D

I think the show does clearly convey that nothing less than Shen Wei's final sacrifice would have been enough to either destroy him or redeem him.

Yes, this! ♥ ♥ ♥

one reason I enjoy watching older TV shows is because I have no problem treating TV like theater and scaling up in my head when the whole production requires heavy suspension of disbelief. But when I'm watching a newer show with generally good production values, it's much harder for me to avoid taking what we see onscreen as a fairly literal picture of the fictional world

Oh, that's fascinating! I'm the same way with older TV - I know some people find it difficult to watch, but it doesn't bother me at all. But for me, I guess newer shows don't make a difference. People often complain about things like cheap special effects, bad wigs or costumes, filmed in a quarry, etc., and if I'm into a show I barely notice them. It's like my mind only really focuses on those things when I don't like something about the the rest (the script, the acting, the characters and plot), and glosses over them otherwise. *g*

though more government interference might have been interesting!

Yes, absolutely! I regret that we could only get one version of Guardian, and not all the potential ones that might have been. *g*

I do really like the direction they went with it to avoid censorship -- what we do get to see of Dixing is really neat. Which is part of why it's disappointing that there isn't more!

I know! My eternal complaint when I love something: why isn't there MORE?!

Yes, that's very true! Which I guess is part of why we're all here. :D

And also why we keep wanting more fic, because there's always more we could still do! :D

People often complain about things like cheap special effects, bad wigs or costumes, filmed in a quarry, etc., and if I'm into a show I barely notice them. It's like my mind only really focuses on those things when I don't like something about the the rest (the script, the acting, the characters and plot), and glosses over them otherwise. *g*

Me too! (I do notice bad animation, regardless, because my partner's an animator, but I can brush it off pretty easily.)

(I actually find the complaints about wigs really distracting, because they get in my head and call attention to the artifice, and that's the last thing I want when I'm watching. ;-p)

I don't know how to tell good animation from bad animation, but animation rarely works for me because I tend to find the art style offputting.

I meant CGI (though I do watch a lot of fully animated shows and movies as well).

Oh, that makes more sense! *g*

People often complain about things like cheap special effects, bad wigs or costumes, filmed in a quarry, etc., and if I'm into a show I barely notice them.

Most of these don't bother me either, actually! I do notice bad CGI, but I don't tend to think much about wigs or costumes or film sets/locations unless they're reeeeally bad (or really amazing). The stuff from your second list is more what I had in mind -- stuff like scripts and acting styles. Like, I expect a show from 1960 to have more theatrical acting, and I don't mind it there, but that same style of acting might look bad to me in a modern show. I guess having to scale up the number of people in a crowd falls into that category for me, whereas I don't much mind about props and costumes, for some reason. Seems like we all have slightly different thresholds for suspension of disbelief!

Yeah, it's really fascinating how we all have different lines for what reads as intrusive or offputting or disbelief-unsuspending to us! I'm really enjoying talking about this. :D

Yay, thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it. :D :D :D

the narrative has some flaws that sometimes make it hard (for me, at least) to take the main villain/threat very seriously

Ha, it worked well for me, especially with how powerful Ye Zun is even when incorporeal and the chillingly casual way he eats people. It must be an "in the eye of the beholder" thing. :-)

I think the stuff in your "A" section builds up in an especially elegant way, and the culmination with the promise he failed to keep is really powerful, because we finally see the sense in which he is (unfair as it may be) responsible -- or at least, we see why Ye Zun feels he's responsible, and we see that Ye Zun's reasons are understandable, even if they're wrong.

Yesss, it's some really satisfying storytelling, I think. :-)

This makes me think about a similar set of "middle" bullet points that could be written for the gradual process of finding out what Ye Zun's deal actually is. During the middle part of the drama he keeps giving convoluted and hypocritical "reasons" for what he's doing, and explanations of what he aims to achieve, and we can tell he's targeting Shen Wei, but if I remember, I think we don't really start to get solid clues about his real vendetta until the YOHE episodes

Ohh, that would be super interesting, yes! There's the scene that Da Qing overhears at the pillar (ep 23, 9:27):

YZ: You've gotten thinner.
SW: Ye Zun, just stop it. Are you really set on destroying everyone for the sake of your ambition?
YZ: Anyone can urge me to stop, but never you. Don't forget, not only are we related, I'm also your benefactor.
SW: That is nonsense.
YZ: Is it? You should know. Who returned you to glory and made you shine? Don't look far, he's right under your nose.
SW: My awakening is a joke this world played on me. It has nothing to do with you.
YZ: Only because I'm trapped here, neither living nor dying, can you go on with this life. Do you still not get that? It means you can't kill me.
SW: You underestimate me. As long as I can get rid of you, even if I have to sacrifice myself, so what?
YZ: Big words. While I'm imprisoned here, I can't get out, and you can't come in. Get rid of me? Be my guest!
SW: Even so, I will do everything in my power to confine you here. Just like the last ten thousand years.
YZ: Once the curtains have parted, the show's not over till the music ends. Can you prevent this all by yourself?
SW: Let it go.

But like Da Qing, we don't really know what most of it means at that point. It would be fascinating to see that all put together. :-D

Ha, it worked well for me, especially with how powerful Ye Zun is even when incorporeal and the chillingly casual way he eats people. It must be an "in the eye of the beholder" thing. :-)

Oh, no, I definitely don't mean that Ye Zun himself doesn't seem dangerous! As I said in my reply to

trobadora, what I meant is more that I think Ye Zun's actions are meant to be regarded as (a prelude to) full-scale war on all of Haixing, and I feel like there are ways the show could have conveyed that level of power and danger more convincingly, e.g. by having the SID be more organized and proactive and better equipped, but all their efforts still failing.

There's the scene that Da Qing overhears at the pillar

Oh, yes, I forgot about that! Scenes like that, exactly. :)

Hi, I'm very much in the realm of personal preference, here, so... :-)

This is actually one of the places where the budget constraints/story choices work really well for me! BtVS was my first SF/F show, and it's also built on this model, where Sunnydale is a proxy for (or launching pad to) the rest of the world, without ever really acknowledging that (and where the core cast are the only ones who can intervene to save the day). Similarly, MCU often uses NYC, like in the first Avengers film. So I'm very comfortable with this kind of soft world-building and a story that ignores practical/logical extrapolations about the wider context.

If they'd scaled it up, hardened the world-building and had vast crowds and armies, that would have actually put me off, I think. I'm not here for military tactics or battle scenes. (I know this isn't necessarily what you were suggesting; my train of thought makes its own rails. *g*) I wonder if this is because I don't read epic fantasy, so I don't have sweeping world-spanning stories in my head for localised-threat stories to be overshadowed by?

The only bit I do side-eye a little is when Minister Gao tries to bring in the army, and ZXC(? ZS?) and Li Qian are like, "No! Bad idea!" and knock him out so they can reverse his order. I feel like maybe a quick explanation of why the army wouldn't work would have helped, because yeah, in the case of existential threat, you should use all the weapons at your disposal. I can think of plenty of reasons why the army was a bad idea, from civilian collateral damage to many Dixingren being unaffected by normal bullets (hence the need for a dark-energy gun) to Ye Zun's mind control, but it would've been good to know what Li Qian & co. were thinking. And, y'know, I had the same problem in season 7 of BtVS when, facing a vast threat, they didn't try to call in the army, so I tend to assume that's a genre thing. :-)

As far as Dixing goes, I'm actually very happy with it being a rough sketch, and getting to fill in the details in fic.

Mostly I feel like this is a story that spans about six months, and the SID go from zero to 100 in that time, from a lackadaisical "law enforcement" agency that hasn't had any/many cases in the last three years to a ~~plucky band of fighters~~ team who are fierce and cohesive and prepared to give their lives. I love all of them, and I want the story to be pretty much exclusively about them (with occasional vague indications of the potential fall-out) -- and Guardian kindly obliged on that score. *g* For me, everything else is just set dressing, and too much set dressing would get in the way.

I think Ye Zun's actions are meant to be regarded as (a prelude to) full-scale war on all of Haixing

Yeeah, I do tend to refer to it as an uprising or invasion in fic, rather than a war. There were plenty of casualties, but we didn't see a lot of fighters.

From your comment to Trobadora:
But sometimes the "five people tussling" stuff is just a little too much like a stage play for me, compared to the rest of the show. XD

Ha, I think the thing for me is that "five people tussling" is exactly how my brain works. I am super vague about action scenes, and even if a story shows me an epic battle, my brain will translate it into five people tussling (or just a blurry confusing melee that can't hold my attention). So it doesn't bother me at all if that's what's on the screen -- it's actually better, because it's easier to follow. *g*

tl;dr I am the Guardian drama's exact target audience. \o?

Edited 2022-07-05 21:39 (UTC)

I wonder if this is because I don't read epic fantasy, so I don't have sweeping world-spanning stories in my head for localised-threat stories to be overshadowed by?

Epic sci-fi for me! So, worlds-spanning. Very appropriate for Guardian! :p

(This is super fascinating! I love reading about how our brains work differently engaging with the same media. ♥)

Epic sci-fi for me! So, worlds-spanning. Very appropriate for Guardian! :p

Oh, yes, of course. *facepalm* (This is Writing Excuses getting in my brain; one of the hosts writes epic fantasy, so it comes up a lot.)

I think the only epic SF I watch is probably The Expanse (unless the occasional Star Wars property counts?), and I'm 100% there for the characters. The story could be much smaller in scope, and it would make no difference to me, though I do enjoy The Expanse's hard sciencing. /wildly off-topic now

♥

I wonder if this is because I don't read epic fantasy, so I don't have sweeping world-spanning stories in my head for localised-threat stories to be overshadowed by?

I'm not mainly into epic fantasy either, so I don't think it's that, exactly? I'd be happy with the threat being local to Dragon City. I think for me there's just a bit of a disconnect due to Ye Zun being implicitly an epic, world-spanning threat, but acting and being treated more like a local supervillain. But a) as you say, this is obviously a matter of personal interpretation/preference and probably also genre conventions (and superhero stuff is admittedly not my usual genre), and b) I think my long comment to

trobadora makes it sound like I'm a lot more concerned about this epic/local stuff than I actually am. XD My initial mention of "narrative flaws" was only really meant as an acknowledgement, since I'd been reading your conversation with

miss_ingno and could see both sides.

tl;dr I am the Guardian drama's exact target audience. \o?

And I might be too picky to be the exact target audience for anything. XD

Yeah, the show does a lot of Dragon City ≡ Haixing, like I'm pretty sure all the shots we get of ZYL's broadcast are in Dragon City, too. I think it is a genre thing.

And I might be too picky to be the exact target audience for anything. XD

Hee! *hearts* :D

All roads lead to the Guardian drama, for me, and thinking about Guardian through the lens above made my brain light up.

Hee! I'm very glad about it if it leads to meta like this; this is brilliant! :D

It may also be that, if he suspects a) Ye Zun is involved, and b) Ye Zun is able to absorb people's powers by eating them, then he is resolving here not to let his power fall into the wrong hands.

Yes! I always thought that had to be a big consideration when confronting Ye Zun. If he loses, he doesn't just lose - he makes Ye Zun even more powerful than he already is.

during Ye Zun's first attack, Zhao Yunlan is blinded -- a great cost, and Ye Zun isn't even corporeal yet!

Yes, and we see how much it takes to undo even that small bit of individual damage Ye Zun did almost in passing while essentially on a five-minute leave from his pillar. And that's with Zhao Yunlan being able to hold him off; what could he have done in those few minutes otherwise?

I love how you lay out all the rising tension as the threat of Ye Zun becomes more evident and more personal at the same time.

At this point, it's clear the threat is fundamentally personal for Shen Wei, who is Ye Zun's older brother and so is responsible for him. (As a contrast/thought experiment: if it had been Chu Shuzhi's brother, Nianzhi, who was destabilising the world from beyond the grave, I think most people would instinctively feel that this was Chu Shuzhi's story, and it had to be Chu Shuzhi who was central to fixing it in the end.)

Yeah, there's a narrative logic to it, even before we know Shen Wei failed to protect Ye Zun when they were kids. It's his twin; of course it's his job to confront him.

And although it's in no way fair, narratively speaking that failure is the real reason it had to be Shen Wei who stopped Ye Zun.

Yes! The twins aspect and the failure aspect reinforce each other, IMO - because they're twins, Shen Wei must confront his brother; because he failed him then, he must succeed now. IMO, having someone else do it for him would feel like a let-down at that point.

I ran out of time to look at C) the reasons Shen Wei doesn't just go and blow up Ye Zun as soon as he realises he can use his light-energy contamination, but I think the show does a pretty good job of setting out all the things he has to lose/live for. What do you think?

Shen Wei of course has a lot to live for - he has a life (two lives) and a duty and a Zhao Yunlan - but also, when he gains his light-energy contamination and realises what he can do with it, Ye Zun is still captive in the pillar. He's managed to escape briefly, and he's proved he's a significant danger, but blowing him up at that point would be overkill when it must still seem feasible to contain him instead, as he was clearly contained for 10,000 years. I mean, he does need the Merit Brush to escape; what if Shen Wei had found it first? Why shouldn't it be possible to recreate whatever previously kept him captive and apparently not acting out to the degree he currently is? Shen Wei isn't suicidal - he wants to live, and he doesn't want his brother dead either, for all that "keep him locked up indefinitely" isn't exactly ideal either. (I don't think he lets himself think beyond that, because he's a pragmatist at heart, and he doesn't let himself indulge in fantasies about getting his brother back, not with the way Ye Zun is these days.)

Even lateron, after Ye Zun has escaped - all the Hallows together once did lock him into that pillar, and kept him there for millennia. Why not again? If they know nothing else that will work against Ye Zun, they do know this. I think it's pretty telling that Shen Wei, even when he gets captured, never tries to provoke Ye Zun into eating him. He doesn't give up until there really is no other way.

So, essentially, I think Shen Wei very much hoped he would never actually have to put his contingency plan into practice. But then he did, because nothing else worked ... that rising tension again. *g*

(Which is also why I can never buy an "easy" solution for Ye Zun. I don't think there were easier ways of stopping him, short of Hallows ex machina.)

Hee! I'm very glad about it if it leads to meta like this; this is brilliant! :D

*beams*

Yes! I always thought that had to be a big consideration when confronting Ye Zun. If he loses, he doesn't just lose - he makes Ye Zun even more powerful than he already is.

Ha, yeah, I'm pretty sure I acquired that idea from you. :-)

Yes, and we see how much it takes to undo even that small bit of individual damage Ye Zun did almost in passing while essentially on a five-minute leave from his pillar. And that's with Zhao Yunlan being able to hold him off; what could he have done in those few minutes otherwise?

Does not bear thinking about. (I suspect Zhu Hong wouldn't have walked away, either...)

Yes! The twins aspect and the failure aspect reinforce each other, IMO - because they're twins, Shen Wei must confront his brother; because he failed him then, he must succeed now. IMO, having someone else do it for him would feel like a let-down at that point.

Yes. 1000% agree, obviously.

My exception to this is that I quite like the idea (in fixit fic) of the people of Dixing rising up together to stop Ye Zun. Idk if they could have done it, but perhaps in concert with Shen Wei and the SID? I remember reading something about "hero saves the day" stories versus "community coming together to save the day" stories, and I think so long as Shen Wei still plays a pivotal role somehow, the latter would work for me, especially if we assume that a lot of Dixing's troubles were flow-on effects from Ye Zun's Pillar of Promulgating Discontent, so it was the Dixing people saving themselves...

But Shen Wei definitely has to be in there somehow.

but blowing him up at that point would be overkill when it must still seem feasible to contain him instead, as he was clearly contained for 10,000 years.

Yes! And in fact, Shen Wei says that to him outright, in that conversation that Da Qing overhears, quoted in comments above. "I will do everything in my power to confine you here. Just like the last ten thousand years." (Though -- it's not surprising that just feeds Ye Zun's sense of injustice, given the disproportionate nature of his initial punishment.)

I think it's pretty telling that Shen Wei, even when he gets captured, never tries to provoke Ye Zun into eating him. He doesn't give up until there really is no other way.

Yeah, that's a really good point.

(Which is also why I can never buy an "easy" solution for Ye Zun. I don't think there were easier ways of stopping him, short of Hallows ex machina.)

Hee! I'm pretty sure 99% of my fixits are Hallows ex machina. They're so useful like that! (Also: agreed, obviously!)

My exception to this is that I quite like the idea (in fixit fic) of the people of Dixing rising up together to stop Ye Zun.

Oh yes, I love that! I'm all for more of that, but as you say, Shen Wei needs to be part of it. Without Shen Wei it doesn't work.

And in fact, Shen Wei says that to him outright, in that conversation that Da Qing overhears, quoted in comments above. "I will do everything in my power to confine you here. Just like the last ten thousand years." (Though -- it's not surprising that just feeds Ye Zun's sense of injustice, given the disproportionate nature of his initial punishment.)

Good find! And yep, it's not helping with Ye Zun's anger at Shen Wei. Ye Zun keeps taunting Shen Wei, and then Shen Wei responds and seems to confirm all of Ye Zun's worst thoughts about his hypocrisy, and it's all a terrible self-reinforcing vicious circle. /o\

(Hallows ex machina are incredibly useful indeed!)

Ahhhh. I just wanted to say this is an awesome awesome write-up and I will respond with something more in-depth soon, but wanted to say I really really really love this and it was a joy to read :D

:heartheartheart:

Yay, thanks so much for saying! I'm so glad you enjoyed it. :D :D :D

<3 <3 <3

A bit late to the chat, but at least I got to read this post and all the comments above me! I have a few cents of my own, and apologies if I'm retreading topics previous commenters have made here. Two years as of this month, and I still have *thoughts* about this show. XD

A while before I got into Guardian, I watched a really amazingly tragic horror mini-series called The Terror. It's a historical fiction dramatization showing what might have happened to the Franklin Expedition, probably the most infamous epic failure of arctic exploration in the 19th century. Even before going down an insane history and science rabbit hole, I rewatched the show a few times trying to pinpoint at what point the expedition could have avoided their fate. Almost everything that could possibly go wrong went wrong, but so many efforts and choices that were made at that time made so much sense that you can't entirely blame everyone for thinking the expedition would be a success. It was well stocked, the ships were renovated, and state-of-the-art technology was used that is distantly familiar to a modern audience. While some mysteries of the expedition's fate have been solved, everyone still wonders what specifically was the final nail in the coffin that doomed the expedition. Despite The Terror being very tragic, the characters are so well written and the bonds between the crewmen trying to survive against the impossible was so heartfelt and inspiring, showing the best of people even in the darkest of hours.

I've done countless similar post-mortem creative exercises with Guardian. In fact, doing so has helped me process the ending after it ripped my heart out and left me an inconsolable mess for months. And it's made me really respect the writing and the creative choices made throughout the show. Like with The Terror, as much as I want the characters to have a happy ending, I can't really find that "final nail in the coffin", the point of no return, that could spare them from their fate. Guardian is a very well constructed tragedy. It's so well done that it inspired me to dissect it, just as most of us here have done in fics, theories, and scene analyses.

For example, take the case made in Section A about why Shen Wei has to be the one to face Ye Zun. You thoroughly illustrated how connected SW is to his brother to the point that practically no other character could stop YZ without it feeling underdeveloped or unsatisfying. It's also logical for SW to be the one because of who he innately is as a person and that YZ is his brother, his twin, his reflection and inverse (metaphorically speaking). They complement each other. As much as I want to knock some sense into SW and showing him in enough love that he doesn't continue his self-sacrificing crusade, I understand completely why he does it and I cannot blame him for feeling the way he does so strongly. It's the same thing with Zhao Yunlan, the rest of the SID, and even his father and Zhang Shi to a certain extent.

I also mostly agree with Section B, even when I set aside any nitpicks that come from how I experience fiction. (To simplify, this show might not have the most convincing effects on the surface, but there are essential details done right that bigger and more expensive productions bafflingly miss.) The only area where I see a weakness is the Yashou market being a dead end for finding a cure for ZYL's blindness. It felt like a very sudden abandoned plot point buried deep under the wonderful "Xiao Wei" nuke ZYL dropped on everyone. But even if I were to change that plot point and have ZYL's eyes fixed, I still can't help but wonder if SW at full power and without energy corruption could still stop YZ. (The Hallows have a wonderful habit of making everything difficult for everyone for reasons only those cosmic plot devices can fathom. XD) And SW being at full power wouldn't resolve him being extremely unforthcoming about YZ b/c of preserving the timeline or out of a sense of duty only he can fulfill. It still wouldn't stop SW from taking crazy risks alone to save everyone else. It still wouldn't stop ZYL from being his own version of being the same wonderfully noble, self-sacrificing idiot. Basically, there still are fundamental character flaws that contribute to the paved road leading to the show's ending that will not be resolved with fixing ZYL's eyes in a different way.

Also, I agree with those who have said there is no easy way for YZ to "see the light". The only other way I can picture without YZ dead would be through SW sharing his memories with YZ through a mind-reading ability. Thanks to YZ's years of trauma at the hands of the Rebel Leader, yeah... good luck navigating that minefield, fellow fanfic writers. (;_;)7

While I may liberally make fun of SW and ZYL for solving problems by taking on crazy risks solo, they do try to delay making the most grave decisions as much as possible. If SW had blowing up YZ as the #1 strategy, he would have done so much, much sooner, especially if he somehow weighed saving the world over seeing Kunlun's promise of their reunion come to fruition. And ZYL probably wouldn't have lit the Guardian lantern himself if a) Dixing wasn't crumbling so quickly, b) somehow didn't mind sacrificing one of his subordinates, and c) SW was alive. SW choosing to blow up YZ when he did and ZYL sacrificing himself both happen after the show carefully spent 39 episodes exploring who they are under hundreds of circumstances with enough compassion and grace to understand why, even if we don't necessarily "like" or "agree" with it.

...All of this is making me wish what I write could be half as good as what's in the best moments and arcs of Guardian. Thanks as always for your contributions to the fandom!

Hi! Thanks so much for your commenting with your thoughts. It's never too late!

Two years as of this month, and I still have *thoughts* about this show. XD

It's such a good show like that! It's been nearly four years for me, and I keep noticing themes, parallels and resonances. *loves*

I love the lines you've drawn between the Guardian drama and The Terror. That "tragic yet inevitable" kind of arc can be really compelling, can't it, especially if there are moments of hope and lightness along the way. And I'm so glad to hear that your processing and analysis have brought you healing. <3 <3 <3

And it's made me really respect the writing and the creative choices made throughout the show. Like with The Terror, as much as I want the characters to have a happy ending, I can't really find that "final nail in the coffin", the point of no return, that could spare them from their fate. Guardian is a very well constructed tragedy.

<3 <3 <3

To simplify, this show might not have the most convincing effects on the surface, but there are essential details done right that bigger and more expensive productions bafflingly miss.

Right? And I'm perfectly happy to suspend disbelief for the occasional shaky CGI or whatever in exchange for those things. Absolutely worth it, imo.

The only area where I see a weakness is the Yashou market being a dead end for finding a cure for ZYL's blindness. It felt like a very sudden abandoned plot point buried deep under the wonderful "Xiao Wei" nuke ZYL dropped on everyone.

Oh, that's a good point. The Yashou market lead just vanishes without a trace, doesn't it? Though I think even if it had been a bustling scene with multiple sellers of herbal remedies, etc, it still wouldn't have worked out, for some reason. Narratively, I think it had to be the energy exchange, binding them together. Shen Wei undoing the corruption that his brother had caused (directly or indirectly -- I'm not sure if the dark energy corruption was from Ye Zun's blasts or from the Dial itself?).

If Zhu Hong's lead had brought them to a cure, that would have been a different story, you know?

I still can't help but wonder if SW at full power and without energy corruption could still stop YZ.

Yeah, I think Shen Wei doubted it, too, and it's why he didn't look for a cure for his energy corruption. Ye Zun is just so powerful, and on top of that, has an endless supply of powered minions at his disposal.

The Hallows have a wonderful habit of making everything difficult for everyone for reasons only those cosmic plot devices can fathom. XD

Hee! Yes.

Basically, there still are fundamental character flaws that contribute to the paved road leading to the show's ending that will not be resolved with fixing ZYL's eyes in a different way.

I agree, though personally I don't see them as flaws. To me, they're marks of heroism and part of what I love about the characters. They've both willingly taken on responsibility for protecting the world, it's a fundamental value they share, and... I think it's admirable, you know? As Shen Wei says at the end, it's meaningful. (It's like an extreme version of admirable people in the real world who dedicate themselves to public service or important causes; I don't look at them and think they should stop being so altruistic and committed to whatever cause they've taken up.)

SW choosing to blow up YZ when he did and ZYL sacrificing himself both happen after the show carefully spent 39 episodes exploring who they are under hundreds of circumstances with enough compassion and grace to understand why

Oh, yes, that's such a good point. The middle of the show isn't just doing A, B, and C (as in the post above) -- it's also firmly establishing character. If Shen Wei had run off to safety with Zhao Yunlan, leaving the world to fall to Ye Zun, he just... wouldn't have been Shen Wei anymore. And Zhao Yunlan would have had to be not-himself to go along with it.

...All of this is making me wish what I write could be half as good as what's in the best moments and arcs of Guardian.

Ha, I know what you mean. It does so many things so well (how could we ever top that Envoy reveal?!). Still, it's a wonderful sandbox to play in.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful comment. It's especially fascinating to get the perspective of someone who initially found the ending so heartbreaking and has come to see the strength and inevitability (in a good way) of it . <3 <3 <3

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Meta: narrative structure and raising the stakes in the Guardian drama

A) Why is it Shen Wei who has to stop Ye Zun?

B) Progressively more drastic attempts to mitigate/stop Ye Zun's attacks

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject