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sid_guardian2021-06-11 06:23 am
shadaras) wrote in sid_guardian2021-06-11 06:23 am
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Focus On: Zhu Jiu Attempts (and Fails) to Recruit Chu Shuzhi, ep19
This scene is in episode 19. The set-up is from 17:51-18:43, and the scene itself runs from 20:32-22:00.
I’m using the community files/subs.
Set-Up:
After a fight that he came very close to losing, Zhu Jiu has captured Guo Changcheng, Ye Huo, and Chu Shuzhi. He’s got them all tied up in an empty laboratory. (Which: WTF is this lab even used for? The equipment is just a mish-mash of whatever quasi-medical equipment it needed in order to appear threatening, I feel.) Ye Huo is rather burnt, Guo Changcheng is rather concerned, and Chu Shuzhi is sitting in front of them all very quietly.
This scene comes right after Guo Changcheng first tried to free himself enough to get a signal to the rest of the SID and then—once Zhu Jiu crushed the little bug he was trying to activate—began asking Zhu Jiu to let him bandage Ye Huo. Zhu Jiu agrees, but frames his acceptance as a deal: “You can save him, but then you have to die here”
Guo Changcheng (unsurprisingly) takes that deal. Zhu Jiu (equally unsurprisingly) is mad about this, starts choking Guo Changcheng, and calls out Guo Changcheng’s martyr complex.
Then (17:51) Chu Shuzhi gets involved, saying, “What you want is torture. Dying like that is too easy for him.”
This gets Zhu Jiu’s attention, unsurprisingly!
Chu Shuzhi continues: “Make his life more unbearable than death. That is true torture.”
Zhu Jiu laughs, releases Guo Changcheng, and turns to Chu Shuzhi. “You’re right,” he says. “You understand me well.”
(18:10)
Zhu Jiu brings up Chu Shuzhi’s “taboo crimes” (which Chu Shuzhi does not look happy about being reminded of) and unties Guo Changcheng so that he can begin tending to Ye Huo. (end at 18:43)
(We then cut to Zhu Hong and Shen Wei having a lovely chat about Zhao Yunlan for a bit.)
It’s 20:19 into the episode, and we’re back to Guo Changcheng tending Ye Huo’s wounds. He doesn’t seem great at it, for all that he said he’s had first-aid training, but that’s not the point here.
The Scene:
At 20:32, Zhu Jiu sits down next to Chu Shuzhi and says, “You’re too much of a threat. I don’t dare untie you. But…” —as Zhu Jiu places his hand on Chu Shuzhi’s far shoulder— “if you can forsake the darkness and work for the boss with me…” He trails off, clearly hoping that the implication would be enticing even without a specific promise he might need to go back on later.
(20:44)
Chu Shuzhi turns to look at him. If one doesn’t know how deep his loyalty to the Envoy is, this might seem like he was interested by this deal, so Zhu Jiu is naturally delighted by how well this is going. But really, Chu Shuzhi just wants to know, “Who’s your boss?”
(20:47)
Zhu Jiu looks away and laughs nervously. Not the question he wanted to be asked. But maybe he can save it, if he starts monologuing like his boss! “I understand you. I can see it in your eyes, you distrust humans.”
Chu Shuzhi might not particularly like most humans, but ‘distrust’? He doesn’t seem to distrust humans any more than dixingren, in that his trust is never given lightly. Why Zhu Jiu thinks this line of speechifying will work on Chu Shuzhi—whom he captured because Chu Shuzhi was trying to protect humans from Zhu Jiu—I’m not sure. I suspect this might just be Zhu Jiu’s stock recruitment speech; he seems like the kind of guy who would have one.
(21:04)
Zhu Jiu moves in front of Chu Shuzhi as he speaks, to be even more dramatically gay about this attempted seduction.
(21:07)
“How about you and me, we fight against the humans? Against the stupid Black-Cloaked Envoy,” Zhu Jiu says, sealing his doom. It’s no good to insult the Envoy in front of Chu Shuzhi. But he doesn’t know that yet, so he keeps going, even letting go of Chu Shuzhi so that he can gesture more dramatically as he reaches the climax of his speech: “We dixingren together can form a brand new era of light!”
(21:19)
(And look at the way this scene is staged with the spotlight effect on Chu Shuzhi. Nice work to help make the whole “out of the darkness and into the light” a visual effect as well as a rhetorical one.)
Chu Shuzhi smiles, and it is not nice at all. He starts to laugh, and Zhu Jiu joins in. He’s very delighted, in this moment, that his comic-book villain speech seems to have worked!
(21:23)
(21:26)
They laugh together for long enough that Guo Changcheng gets concerned, shouting “Chu-ge!” as if he’s afraid Chu Shuzhi has snapped. Which is a fair concern, really, considering that this started with Chu Shuzhi telling Zhu Jiu that torturing Guo Changcheng might be a good idea.
But Chu Shuzhi is perfectly in control of himself, despite how much fun he’s been having pretending otherwise. This evil laugh of his hasn’t been directed at his friends; it’s very much pointed at Zhu Jiu.
Chu Shuzhi stops laughing abruptly and shouts “Pathetic!” at Zhu Jiu, who responds with clear shock; he didn’t see this coming at all.
(21:33)
(21:34)
Chu Shuzhi continues insulting Zhu Jiu: “Who are you calling stupid? Talking about yourself, right?”
Zhu Jiu slaps Chu Shuzhi, and Chu Shuzhi just laughs at him again. “That’s all you got?” he asks, inciting Zhu Jiu to grab him and shout “You want to die?”
Guo Changcheng grabs the first aid kit and steps forward to hit Zhu Jiu with it. Before he can move more than a single step, a phone starts to ring.
Everyone freezes.
(21:49) (Zhu Jiu when the phone rings, extremely Not Okay)
(21:51) (Chu Shuzhi at that same moment, completely unafraid)
(21:53) (the grab itself, for full effect)
do I think this would be a terrible trashy foeyay ship? yes. did that influence what screencaps I picked? also yes.
Slowly, after almost ten seconds, Zhu Jiu releases Chu Shuzhi and picks up the phone. (22:00)
It’s Zhao Yunlan, saying that he’ll take Zhu Jiu’s deal and trade the Holy Tools for his people. At least that seems to be going Zhu Jiu’s way for now.
And then Zhu Jiu leaves, though not before turning on the absolute zero system.
Commentary
Did I pick this scene because of my adoration for loyalty being displayed so clearly? Yes. Did I also pick it because of the sheer intensity of the vibes between Chu Shuzhi and Zhu Jiu here? Yes.
Zhu Jiu isn’t wrong to draw comparisons between himself and Chu Shuzhi, is the thing. Zhu Jiu is a dark mirror for Chu Shuzhi’s circumstances, though at this point in canon we don’t know much about Chu Shuzhi’s backstory yet. They both wanted to serve Dixing like the Envoy, at one point. They both killed someone they shouldn’t have. They’re both completely devoted to their chosen lord.
We’ve seen Chu Shuzhi’s loyalty to the Envoy by this point. It was established quite early: At the end of ep2, when Chu Shuzhi and the Envoy meet (right after the Envoy finishes talking to Zhao Yunlan about the Dial and Holy Tools in general), Chu Shuzhi kneels to reaffirm his loyalty and gratitude. For all that the Envoy prefers not to treat their relationship as lord and servant, it’s clear that Chu Shuzhi is happy to treat it that way.
We’ve also seen Zhu Jiu’s loyalty to Ye Zun! He’s very much obsessed, and devoted, and Ye Zun does treat him like a servant. He’s disposable, in a way that the Envoy does not want Chu Shuzhi to be.
So when Zhu Jiu hears Chu Shuzhi talk about torture, and seem to casually disregard someone who’s supposed to be his teammate— Well, Zhu Jiu’s experience with formal organizations is incredibly shitty, and he knows that Chu Shuzhi is the only dixingren on his team, so it’s not surprising he thinks it’s worth trying toseduce recruit Chu Shuzhi to his side.
It’s clear to a viewer—especially after the first viewing—that Chu Shuzhi is putting on an act to draw Zhu Jiu in. And it works! Chu Shuzhi knows his past, and he knows why that would be attractive to Zhu Jiu and his mysterious boss, and if he’s going to be captured anyway— Well, it’s worth trying to get some information! And this timing means he can protect Guo Changcheng, who was otherwise going to be the focus of Zhu Jiu’s attention.
Zhu Jiu moves from making one spur-of-the-moment deal (asking Guo Changcheng to die in exchange for being allowed to treat Ye Huo) to another (attempting to recruit Chu Shuzhi), and the scene ends with Zhao Yunlan accepting a third deal (though we know that his agreement is partially a trick).
It’s interesting, really, how Chu Shuzhi is the only one to outright reject Zhu Jiu, and how mad Zhu Jiu gets about it. The deals are all very different, of course, and the one offered to Chu Shuzhi is the only one where it’s not explicitly about saving other people; that makes it quite easy to reject, once it’s clear Chu Shuzhi’s gotten all the information out of Zhu Jiu he can right then. (And because once Zhu Jiu insulted the Envoy it’s not like Chu Shuzhi would be able to pretend to listen to him anymore.)
Some Related Scenes:
Related Fanworks, Meta, Etc.
I do not know! I am rather new to the fandom. Please share links in the comments! <3
Questions for the Audience:
I’m using the community files/subs.
Set-Up:
After a fight that he came very close to losing, Zhu Jiu has captured Guo Changcheng, Ye Huo, and Chu Shuzhi. He’s got them all tied up in an empty laboratory. (Which: WTF is this lab even used for? The equipment is just a mish-mash of whatever quasi-medical equipment it needed in order to appear threatening, I feel.) Ye Huo is rather burnt, Guo Changcheng is rather concerned, and Chu Shuzhi is sitting in front of them all very quietly.
This scene comes right after Guo Changcheng first tried to free himself enough to get a signal to the rest of the SID and then—once Zhu Jiu crushed the little bug he was trying to activate—began asking Zhu Jiu to let him bandage Ye Huo. Zhu Jiu agrees, but frames his acceptance as a deal: “You can save him, but then you have to die here”
Guo Changcheng (unsurprisingly) takes that deal. Zhu Jiu (equally unsurprisingly) is mad about this, starts choking Guo Changcheng, and calls out Guo Changcheng’s martyr complex.
Then (17:51) Chu Shuzhi gets involved, saying, “What you want is torture. Dying like that is too easy for him.”
This gets Zhu Jiu’s attention, unsurprisingly!
Chu Shuzhi continues: “Make his life more unbearable than death. That is true torture.”
Zhu Jiu laughs, releases Guo Changcheng, and turns to Chu Shuzhi. “You’re right,” he says. “You understand me well.”
(18:10)Zhu Jiu brings up Chu Shuzhi’s “taboo crimes” (which Chu Shuzhi does not look happy about being reminded of) and unties Guo Changcheng so that he can begin tending to Ye Huo. (end at 18:43)
(We then cut to Zhu Hong and Shen Wei having a lovely chat about Zhao Yunlan for a bit.)
It’s 20:19 into the episode, and we’re back to Guo Changcheng tending Ye Huo’s wounds. He doesn’t seem great at it, for all that he said he’s had first-aid training, but that’s not the point here.
The Scene:
At 20:32, Zhu Jiu sits down next to Chu Shuzhi and says, “You’re too much of a threat. I don’t dare untie you. But…” —as Zhu Jiu places his hand on Chu Shuzhi’s far shoulder— “if you can forsake the darkness and work for the boss with me…” He trails off, clearly hoping that the implication would be enticing even without a specific promise he might need to go back on later.
(20:44)Chu Shuzhi turns to look at him. If one doesn’t know how deep his loyalty to the Envoy is, this might seem like he was interested by this deal, so Zhu Jiu is naturally delighted by how well this is going. But really, Chu Shuzhi just wants to know, “Who’s your boss?”
(20:47)Zhu Jiu looks away and laughs nervously. Not the question he wanted to be asked. But maybe he can save it, if he starts monologuing like his boss! “I understand you. I can see it in your eyes, you distrust humans.”
Chu Shuzhi might not particularly like most humans, but ‘distrust’? He doesn’t seem to distrust humans any more than dixingren, in that his trust is never given lightly. Why Zhu Jiu thinks this line of speechifying will work on Chu Shuzhi—whom he captured because Chu Shuzhi was trying to protect humans from Zhu Jiu—I’m not sure. I suspect this might just be Zhu Jiu’s stock recruitment speech; he seems like the kind of guy who would have one.
(21:04)Zhu Jiu moves in front of Chu Shuzhi as he speaks, to be even more dramatically gay about this attempted seduction.
(21:07)“How about you and me, we fight against the humans? Against the stupid Black-Cloaked Envoy,” Zhu Jiu says, sealing his doom. It’s no good to insult the Envoy in front of Chu Shuzhi. But he doesn’t know that yet, so he keeps going, even letting go of Chu Shuzhi so that he can gesture more dramatically as he reaches the climax of his speech: “We dixingren together can form a brand new era of light!”
(21:19)(And look at the way this scene is staged with the spotlight effect on Chu Shuzhi. Nice work to help make the whole “out of the darkness and into the light” a visual effect as well as a rhetorical one.)
Chu Shuzhi smiles, and it is not nice at all. He starts to laugh, and Zhu Jiu joins in. He’s very delighted, in this moment, that his comic-book villain speech seems to have worked!
(21:23) (21:26)They laugh together for long enough that Guo Changcheng gets concerned, shouting “Chu-ge!” as if he’s afraid Chu Shuzhi has snapped. Which is a fair concern, really, considering that this started with Chu Shuzhi telling Zhu Jiu that torturing Guo Changcheng might be a good idea.
But Chu Shuzhi is perfectly in control of himself, despite how much fun he’s been having pretending otherwise. This evil laugh of his hasn’t been directed at his friends; it’s very much pointed at Zhu Jiu.
Chu Shuzhi stops laughing abruptly and shouts “Pathetic!” at Zhu Jiu, who responds with clear shock; he didn’t see this coming at all.
(21:33) (21:34)Chu Shuzhi continues insulting Zhu Jiu: “Who are you calling stupid? Talking about yourself, right?”
Zhu Jiu slaps Chu Shuzhi, and Chu Shuzhi just laughs at him again. “That’s all you got?” he asks, inciting Zhu Jiu to grab him and shout “You want to die?”
Guo Changcheng grabs the first aid kit and steps forward to hit Zhu Jiu with it. Before he can move more than a single step, a phone starts to ring.
Everyone freezes.
(21:49) (Zhu Jiu when the phone rings, extremely Not Okay) (21:51) (Chu Shuzhi at that same moment, completely unafraid) (21:53) (the grab itself, for full effect)Slowly, after almost ten seconds, Zhu Jiu releases Chu Shuzhi and picks up the phone. (22:00)
It’s Zhao Yunlan, saying that he’ll take Zhu Jiu’s deal and trade the Holy Tools for his people. At least that seems to be going Zhu Jiu’s way for now.
And then Zhu Jiu leaves, though not before turning on the absolute zero system.
Commentary
Did I pick this scene because of my adoration for loyalty being displayed so clearly? Yes. Did I also pick it because of the sheer intensity of the vibes between Chu Shuzhi and Zhu Jiu here? Yes.
Zhu Jiu isn’t wrong to draw comparisons between himself and Chu Shuzhi, is the thing. Zhu Jiu is a dark mirror for Chu Shuzhi’s circumstances, though at this point in canon we don’t know much about Chu Shuzhi’s backstory yet. They both wanted to serve Dixing like the Envoy, at one point. They both killed someone they shouldn’t have. They’re both completely devoted to their chosen lord.
We’ve seen Chu Shuzhi’s loyalty to the Envoy by this point. It was established quite early: At the end of ep2, when Chu Shuzhi and the Envoy meet (right after the Envoy finishes talking to Zhao Yunlan about the Dial and Holy Tools in general), Chu Shuzhi kneels to reaffirm his loyalty and gratitude. For all that the Envoy prefers not to treat their relationship as lord and servant, it’s clear that Chu Shuzhi is happy to treat it that way.
We’ve also seen Zhu Jiu’s loyalty to Ye Zun! He’s very much obsessed, and devoted, and Ye Zun does treat him like a servant. He’s disposable, in a way that the Envoy does not want Chu Shuzhi to be.
So when Zhu Jiu hears Chu Shuzhi talk about torture, and seem to casually disregard someone who’s supposed to be his teammate— Well, Zhu Jiu’s experience with formal organizations is incredibly shitty, and he knows that Chu Shuzhi is the only dixingren on his team, so it’s not surprising he thinks it’s worth trying to
It’s clear to a viewer—especially after the first viewing—that Chu Shuzhi is putting on an act to draw Zhu Jiu in. And it works! Chu Shuzhi knows his past, and he knows why that would be attractive to Zhu Jiu and his mysterious boss, and if he’s going to be captured anyway— Well, it’s worth trying to get some information! And this timing means he can protect Guo Changcheng, who was otherwise going to be the focus of Zhu Jiu’s attention.
Zhu Jiu moves from making one spur-of-the-moment deal (asking Guo Changcheng to die in exchange for being allowed to treat Ye Huo) to another (attempting to recruit Chu Shuzhi), and the scene ends with Zhao Yunlan accepting a third deal (though we know that his agreement is partially a trick).
It’s interesting, really, how Chu Shuzhi is the only one to outright reject Zhu Jiu, and how mad Zhu Jiu gets about it. The deals are all very different, of course, and the one offered to Chu Shuzhi is the only one where it’s not explicitly about saving other people; that makes it quite easy to reject, once it’s clear Chu Shuzhi’s gotten all the information out of Zhu Jiu he can right then. (And because once Zhu Jiu insulted the Envoy it’s not like Chu Shuzhi would be able to pretend to listen to him anymore.)
Some Related Scenes:
- Hei Pao Shi rescues/recruits Chu Shuzhi from prison (ep36), which dorinda will be writing about in a few weeks!
- Chu Shuzhi and the Envoy’s Secret Meeting (ep2, 39:12-41:32)
- Zhu Jiu first meets Ye Zun (ep17, 13:40-14:42; full conversation/framing about Zhu Jiu’s Ye Zun-related feelings from 12:04-15:00.)
- Zhu Jiu pledges himself to Ye Zun (ep20, 3:33-4:20; related backstory about why Zhu Jiu hates the Envoy from 2:22-6:22.)
Related Fanworks, Meta, Etc.
I do not know! I am rather new to the fandom. Please share links in the comments! <3
Questions for the Audience:
- What do you think Ye Huo thinks about all this? He’s essentially collateral during this whole scene, but he’s still here!
- Relatedly, how concerned do you think Guo Changcheng might be about Chu Shuzhi’s loyalties during this sequence? (Chu Shuzhi obviously affirms his attachment to the SID/the Envoy by the end, but there's a decent chunk of time when Guo Changcheng could be worried before he does!)
- Do you think Zhu Jiu’s recruitment speech has worked on other people?
- How do you think things would have escalated if Zhao Yunlan hadn’t called right then?
no subject
I love the analysis of Zhu Jiu as the 'dark mirror' of Chu Shuzhi. I had never thought about that consciously, but you are so right. So it makes perfect sense that Zhu Jiu would project his own desires and ability to be seduced onto Chu Shuzhi--which might tell us things about pre-seduction Zhu Jiu, perhaps, like that his desire to be Personally Heroic And Amazing was much stronger than anything else and so he assumes it's the same for others (or at least others he admires/finds stronger than he is).
I often wonder how much of Ye Zun's seduction of Zhu Jiu had mind-control-power elements, and how much that contributed to Zhu Jiu's instability. But I also was talking with a friend recently about how Chu Shuzhi was not successfully seduced by Ye Zun, mind-control power or not (surely we'll discuss his nightmare sequences or some portion of them another time, so I won't go into them here), despite having some great big unarmored traumatic soft spots just sitting there getting repeatedly punched. And as you mention at the very start of your post, I think the major difference is Loyalty (yay my favorite thing!). Zhu Jiu was loyal to no one before Ye Zun got to him--even his stated desire to be like the Envoy didn't mean he was actually loyal to the Envoy when push came to shove. Whereas Chu Shuzhi's loyalty, to the Envoy, and increasingly to his team and friends, is bone-deep.
Your comparison of the dynamic between Ye Zun and Zhu Jiu, vs between Shen Wei and Chu Shuzhi, is great! It gets at a thing I always like to think about re: loyalty: the worthiness of the one you're loyal to, reciprocal loyalty and care. Shen Wei is worthy of Chu Shuzhi's devotion, not because of his powers or majesty, but because of his return of loyalty for loyalty. We touched on this in the discussion of the scene where Shen Wei apologizes to Chu Shuzhi after the identity reveal, a short moment but a telling one. Whereas Ye Zun does not deserve Zhu Jiu's loyalty, not just because Ye Zun is a mass murderer, but also because he doesn't have any loyalty in return, Zhu Jiu is his tool to be used up, devoured, forgotten.
A question I always toss around from this scene is, why doesn't Chu Shuzhi try to fake-agree and basically attempt to go undercover with the enemy? And what would have happened if he had tried? Could he have managed it, and if so for how long?
I mean, of course the quick answer to could he have done it is No, because of what you say, once Zhu Jiu insulted the Envoy it’s not like Chu Shuzhi would be able to pretend to listen to him anymore--Chu Shuzhi seems to be largely uninterested in lying and subtlety, and if it required him to listen to someone dare to be disrespectful to the Envoy, let alone pretend it didn't bug him, well, game over. But he did manage to go undercover in the SID, so he has practice in at least that very basic level of subterfuge--and we've seen him have to listen to Zhao Yunlan be rude to the Envoy TO THE ENVOY'S FACE (see recent discussion!), which he obviously had to come to terms with (drilling down to 'listening to this disrespect is part of my mission for the Lord Envoy' would help him do it). So could he have managed pretending to accept Zhu Jiu's offer somehow, if he could have made his mind work that way, and what might have happened?
(Man, poor Guo Changcheng would've flipped out, though.)
no subject
which might tell us things about pre-seduction Zhu Jiu, perhaps, like that his desire to be Personally Heroic And Amazing was much stronger than anything else and so he assumes it's the same for others
I'm pretty sure that's true! Take a look at the scene in ep17, where we're first shown young palace guard Zhu Jiu; he's talking about his hero-worship to his captain and gets it thrown in his face.
I often wonder how much of Ye Zun's seduction of Zhu Jiu had mind-control-power elements, and how much that contributed to Zhu Jiu's instability.
Yes! This whole paragraph of yours is a lovely analysis of their different kinds of loyalty. <3 I love all of it.
A question I always toss around from this scene is, why doesn't Chu Shuzhi try to fake-agree and basically attempt to go undercover with the enemy? And what would have happened if he had tried? Could he have managed it, and if so for how long?
Oh, fantastic question! I think I discarded it outright because I can't imagine Chu Shuzhi making such a plan on his own. I think he'd be capable of it, but it would've needed to be something he was asked to do by someone he actually respected (meaning: probably the Envoy, possibly Zhao Yunlan).
As you say, he is capable of dealing with Zhao Yunlan's disrespect towards the Envoy, but he's doing it for the Envoy; he can't punch Zhao Yunlan out of irritation because that would mean he wasn't doing his duty. I think he could apply the same mindset in a much more dangerous context if he needed to, especially if he had time to prepare for it.
But this whole kidnapping situation wasn't the most planned-out thing, and Chu Shuzhi isn't very interested in playing games like that, so instead he goes for some basic information and then decides "you know what? fuck that.".
I would love the canon divergence that shows Chu Shuzhi working undercover for Ye Zun, though! That sounds like it'd be a fantastic story!
no subject
no subject
Yeah, I also wonder about this. I think Zhu Jiu is vulnerable to Ye Zun's powers in a way Lao-Chu isn't, because he's much more fundamentally insecure in himself. I agree loyalty is a huge difference between them - way before the Envoy and the SID, Lao-Chu's loyalty is given entirely to his twin brother, and that plus associated guilt makes for a very different personal foundation.
why doesn't Chu Shuzhi try to fake-agree and basically attempt to go undercover with the enemy? And what would have happened if he had tried? Could he have managed it, and if so for how long?
I think he could have pulled it off at least for a little bit, if he'd tried. Instead his main strategy seems to be to undermine Zhu Jiu's confidence to trip him up that way, maybe make him doubt himself? (Not that that's going to work on Zhu Jiu, but it might seem worth a try to Lao-Chu?
no subject
Oh, yes! That rings true for me.
Yesss! ♥! Which -- maybe that means Shen Wei is careful about whose loyalty he cultivates, and that goes some way towards explaining his reaction to Zhu Jiu when they first met?
no subject
The first time I saw this scene, I thought that Lao Chu was mocking Zhu Jiu. Like the bigger guy reminding the little guy who's better/tougher/etc. They may be similar (disenfranchised Dixingren who see how dark the world is and how cruel people can be) but they are not the same. Drawing parallels to Zhu Jiu's relationship with Ye Zun and Lao Chu's to Shen Wei somewhat highlights this. One is defined by exploitation and hatred while the other by loyalty and trust. Had Shen Wei not given him a second chance, Lao Chu could have been swayed by Ye Zun or Zhu Jiu. (That's an alternate universe I'm scared to see.)
What do you think Ye Huo thinks about all this?
Maybe this was meant to be a moment where Ye Huo (and Xiao Guo) sees more of Lao Chu's true colors. By demonstrating that his loyalties are with with SID and protecting all people even when faced with the possibility of death, Lao Chu's values align with theirs. Remember when everything starts getting crazy near the end, Ye Huo is one of the first people (especially one of the first Dixingren) to step up and proactively help the SID. And we see him with Lao Chu. They forged a bond during this arc, and this scene may have strengthened what connection they formed so that it paid off much later on.
Relatedly, how concerned do you think Guo Changcheng might be about Chu Shuzhi’s loyalties during this sequence?
Xiao Guo tends to be naive and take things at face value, but he does roll with punches when things are different than he first saw. No doubt he was worried about Lao Chu, but once he showed that he's never joining Zhu Jiu's side, he sees Lao Chu's loyalties never changed. (Though even if Lao Chu did switch sides, something tells me Xiao Guo would try to "bring him back" because he always looks for and appeals to the good in others.)
How do you think things would have escalated if Zhao Yunlan hadn’t called right then?
I can easily imagine another fight starting to break out, but it ultimately would not change that Lao Chu won their verbal spat. Zhu Jiu wants to be taken seriously and be intimidating, but Lao Chu completely destroyed that facade beyond repair. It reminds me of a bully who got outsmarted by their victim and progresses to threats and violence to try to regain control of the situation.
(And maybe Xiao Guo or Ye Huo unlock the door while Zhu Jiu is angry and fighting Lao Chu. I can only Ye Zun's reaction if that happened. XD)
no subject
<333 I am, in some ways, very predictable. :)
The first time I saw this scene, I thought that Lao Chu was mocking Zhu Jiu.
Oh, that's interesting! I can definitely see that, but it's not the direction I'd focus on. :)
They forged a bond during this arc, and this scene may have strengthened what connection they formed so that it paid off much later on.
my boundless well of feelings about Chu Shuzhi & Ye Huo... it sure is endless... (I enjoy all your reasoning in this paragraph! I don't think I have anything more to add.)
It reminds me of a bully who got outsmarted by their victim and progresses to threats and violence to try to regain control of the situation.
Yeah, that's a good description of where Zhu Jiu is emotionally by the end of this scene! :)
no subject
Yes, I like this reminder--I don't usually think enough about Ye Huo's perspective in this scene, because he's mostly so quiet (except for when he basically tries to turn himself into a torch to save the others ;____;). He's terribly wounded--someone who's used to cage-fighting all the time, now being almost unable to move? He must be badly injured indeed. But he's conscious, and he observes things like Xiao Guo agreeing to trade his life for being allowed to give Ye Huo first aid, or Chu Shuzhi scorning Zhu Jiu and his corrupt master. He's seeing things about these guys that show him how trustworthy they are, people he'd like to fight beside. Which we see him do later, when the chips are down. ♥
no subject
Oooh, I never thought of it that way, but I love that, it makes so much sense!
no subject
Oooh, interesting thought experiment! I think he would have been more in the flavour of a Ya Qing villain than a Zhu Jiu one. He has his own moral core, not just a vicarious one, even if it's a little rough and bitter sometimes. I think his cherishing his memories of Nianzhi's goodness and his soft reaction to Changcheng's kindness and optimism shows that.
Oh, yes, that's such a good observation. ♥
Hee! Sadly, I think Changcheng lacks the stealth required to carry that out, but maybe between them... :D That would have been awesome!
no subject
Thanks for incluidng all the set-up too, I love your thoughts there as well. :D
Guo Changcheng (unsurprisingly) takes that deal. Zhu Jiu (equally unsurprisingly) is mad about this
Hee! Poor Zhu Jiu, living in a world where people just won't! react! the way they should! LOL.
“Make his life more unbearable than death. That is true torture.”
How much does he speak from experience? Too much, I gather, even if he never quite got to the point of wanting to die. (Too stubborn to die, our Lao-Chu.) But predictably, Zhu Jiu can only see it from the torturer's POV. And I like how neatly Lao-Chu manages to get to Zhu Jiu and draw his attention here!
If one doesn’t know how deep his loyalty to the Envoy is, this might seem like he was interested by this deal, so Zhu Jiu is naturally delighted by how well this is going.
Zhu Jiu has been going agains the SID for half a year, but he clearly hasn't done his homework if he thinks Lao-Chu is so easily subverted. Zhu Jiu almost comes across as a bit naive here? I bet Ya Qing knows better.
But maybe he can save it, if he starts monologuing like his boss!
LOL!
He doesn’t seem to distrust humans any more than dixingren, in that his trust is never given lightly. Why Zhu Jiu thinks this line of speechifying will work on Chu Shuzhi—whom he captured because Chu Shuzhi was trying to protect humans from Zhu Jiu—I’m not sure. I suspect this might just be Zhu Jiu’s stock recruitment speech; he seems like the kind of guy who would have one.
He does seem the kind! But also, he seems to have trouble grasping that other people see things differently from him, have different priorities and different loyalties.
Chu Shuzhi smiles, and it is not nice at all. He starts to laugh, and Zhu Jiu joins in. He’s very delighted, in this moment, that his comic-book villain speech seems to have worked!
Lao-Chu's laughter sounds so mocking to me, it almost strains credulity that Zhu Jiu doesn't pick up on it being directed against him. But on the other hand it's just unhinged enough that it fits with Zhu Jiu's view of the world - he would think such a thing could only be directed at other people ...
I also found it very striking that this isn't the only instance of Lao-Chu leaning into an unhinged appearance. That scene where he's trying to put off Xiao-Guo by making himself out to be a cannibal? I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with that parallel but it came to mind.
Btw, I don't usually quote images, but I have to here, because of this expression:
OMG!!!!!! Seriously, what a frame. :D
Zhu Jiu is a dark mirror for Chu Shuzhi’s circumstances, though at this point in canon we don’t know much about Chu Shuzhi’s backstory yet. They both wanted to serve Dixing like the Envoy, at one point. They both killed someone they shouldn’t have. They’re both completely devoted to their chosen lord.
Yes, that's such a good point! The parallel is there, and so are the differences, as you point out. In Ye Zun vs. Shen Wei in how they treat the people loyal to them, and in Zhu Jiu vs. Chu Shuzhi in what they're offering their respective lords - whereas Zhu Jiu is constantly using other people up in Ye Zun's name (and I don't get the impression this is all directly prompted by Ye Zun; it's very much Zhu Jiu on his own, too), Chu Shuzhi would never.
Zhu Jiu moves from making one spur-of-the-moment deal (asking Guo Changcheng to die in exchange for being allowed to treat Ye Huo) to another (attempting to recruit Chu Shuzhi), and the scene ends with Zhao Yunlan accepting a third deal (though we know that his agreement is partially a trick).
Oooh, I hadn't noticed that before, that is so neat! What a lovely structuring element. :D
(And because once Zhu Jiu insulted the Envoy it’s not like Chu Shuzhi would be able to pretend to listen to him anymore.)
I think he would be able to, but he would need VERY good motivation to do so, and he would find it incredibly distasteful, so would avoid it if there were any other strategies available.
Relatedly, how concerned do you think Guo Changcheng might be about Chu Shuzhi’s loyalties during this sequence?
Xiao-Guo is a bit gullible, so I think he's probably genuinely worried for a moment.
Do you think Zhu Jiu’s recruitment speech has worked on other people?
Probably! We sometiems see him pep-talking other Dixingren he roped into his schemes, and they're desperate enough or angry enough to let Zhu Jiu spur them on.
How do you think things would have escalated if Zhao Yunlan hadn’t called right then?
Before the phone interruption Lao-Chu's last words in this argument are taunting Zhu Jiu, humiliating him, and I wonder if he was going to go for "you're the stupid one, following someone making empty promises and using people up", trying to turn the recruitment attempt around on Zhu Jiu? (The same way Zhao Yunlan later calls Ye Zun out on not trying to help Dixingren, but using them up instead?)
[using my one and only Chu Shuzhi icon - I really should get a second one ...]
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Aaaah that's a great idea! Try to neg Zhu Jiu into reconsidering his current employment (or at least trying to undermine it)--and it wouldn't set off Zhu Jiu's 'he's trying to seduce me in turn' alarms because it would be delivered in a disgusted shout.
using my one and only Chu Shuzhi icon
SUCH a good icon. I mean ;_________; but so good.
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-and it wouldn't set off Zhu Jiu's 'he's trying to seduce me in turn' alarms because it would be delivered in a disgusted shout.
Right? And it's such a Lao-Chu way of going about it!
(The icon is so good, isn't it? Has so many uses!
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Thanks for incluidng all the set-up too, I love your thoughts there as well. :D
I'd forgotten, until I went back to rewatch, that they were basically two separate scenes! Chu Shuzhi's line about torture always stuck in my head as the beginning of this whole sequence, so I wanted to make note of it too. :)
How much does he speak from experience? Too much, I gather, even if he never quite got to the point of wanting to die.
Yes! God, I have a lot of feelings about Chu Shuzhi's relationship with torture, but I didn't want to get into them because they'll be more suited to discussion on
Zhu Jiu almost comes across as a bit naive here? I bet Ya Qing knows better.
Ya Qing definitely knows better! She actually engages with the SID as people instead of just obstacles, even though she seems annoyed by them every time she does. (It's why her eventual turn to helping them makes so much sense! She'd always had the heart for it.)
But on the other hand it's just unhinged enough that it fits with Zhu Jiu's view of the world - he would think such a thing could only be directed at other people ...
Yeah— I honestly never pick up on the mocking aspect until people point it out, because it feels so much like Chu Shuzhi's going for the wild-and-unhinged laugh in exactly the same style Zhu Jiu is. Which is a form of mocking! But it doesn't come off as mocking until he stops laughing, to me.
I also found it very striking that this isn't the only instance of Lao-Chu leaning into an unhinged appearance. That scene where he's trying to put off Xiao-Guo by making himself out to be a cannibal? I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with that parallel but it came to mind.
They use it to great effect in Zhao Yunlan's timey-wimey vision thing, too, when he rises up from being a frozen corpse.
tbh I'm also deeply fascinated by the "I'm a cannibal" scene and how all that goes down. Chu Shuzhi leaning into the violence he's capable of is just really compelling to me! It's such a contrast from the rest of the SID! He's willing to do the dirty work, and he makes himself out as someone who can even enjoy it, and how much is a role he's playing vs how much is true is an interesting question, along with how much guilt he has over whatever feelings he does have.
But uh that's an incoherent ball of feelings that I don't think I can quite untangle yet but probably eventually will get turned into something...
Btw, I don't usually quote images, but I have to here, because of this expression:
RIGHT??? oh my god I kept staring at it and cackling because it's INCREDIBLE, he's so WTF and it's such an awful expression but it's SO FUNNY.
whereas Zhu Jiu is constantly using other people up in Ye Zun's name (and I don't get the impression this is all directly prompted by Ye Zun; it's very much Zhu Jiu on his own, too), Chu Shuzhi would never.
Yeah, Ye Zun certainly enables him, but Zhu Jiu really didn't seem to need much prompting even in the beginning. And by this point he just sees being a violent asshole as his right. Chu Shuzhi would never.
I wonder if he was going to go for "you're the stupid one, following someone making empty promises and using people up", trying to turn the recruitment attempt around on Zhu Jiu?
oooooh that'd be very fun :D I'd love to see how that could've gone... even though in the moment I doubt Zhu Jiu would accept it, planting a tiny seed of doubt would be really interesting! (Especially if it led to him not sacrificing himself as the final life to raise Ye Zun.)
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Yes! She does plenty of awful things and supports more, but she's clearly in a different category from Zhu Jiu even so. I love her.
Chu Shuzhi leaning into the violence he's capable of is just really compelling to me! It's such a contrast from the rest of the SID! He's willing to do the dirty work, and he makes himself out as someone who can even enjoy it, and how much is a role he's playing vs how much is true is an interesting question, along with how much guilt he has over whatever feelings he does have.
Yeah, that's so fascinating! I would love a discussion about the cannibal scene, that could be great ...
even though in the moment I doubt Zhu Jiu would accept it, planting a tiny seed of doubt would be really interesting! (Especially if it led to him not sacrificing himself as the final life to raise Ye Zun.)
Yeah, that would have been fascinating! And even if it didn't lead to any big change in his decisions, having him hesitate for a moment at a crucial moment could have been enough to make a big difference ...
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xD If I remember (or am reminded) during the next round of scene discussions, I'd be happy to lead that! :)
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Hmm, but how would he know? On the face of it, Chu Shuzhi is grouchy and disaffected and saddled with an annoying human puppy, and he only ever meets with the Envoy in secret. I can totally see Zhu Jiu interpreting that as a "desperate for an alternative, raze the SID to the ground" attitude, don't you think? (But yes, Ya Qing might well interpret it with more nuance. *g*)
Oh yes, that.
(Which makes me wonder where Ya Qing falls on this continuum. She sends her crows into battle, but I don't think she'd cheerfully/carelessly sacrifice them. Does she use anyone else like that? She kills Zhu Hong's the Snake Tribe friend and starts choking Zhu Hong herself before being interrupted, but I think Ya Qing sees both of them as obstacles/antagonists...)
He's also very aware of Chu Shuzhi's impatience with him -- he might think he drove Chu Shuzhi to the dark side with his incompetence! ;-)
I wonder if there's any way that could have worked...
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But Lao-Chu has been fighting with the other SID members all this time. And when Zhu Jiu captured Lao-Chu, he directly witnessed Lao-Chu and Xiao-Guo being protective of each other, and Lao-Chu fought to protect the human boys from the fight ring.
I mean. Zhu Jiu has no way of knowing about Lao-Chu's loyalty to the Envoy, and it's not unreasonable to thing it might be possible to make the only Dixingren in the SID change sides. But to jump straight to "let's fight humans and the Envoy together"? He doesn't even try to give him a proper pitch first about how the Envoy and the status quo are terrible and the SID is oppressing Dixingren, or anything. Ye Zun makes a more convincing effort with Zhao Yunlan, and Ye Zun isn't that great at being convincing. :p
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Oh, right, and if Zhu Jiu doesn't know about the Envoy connection/assignment, then he should read Chu Shuzhi's involvement with the SID as even more meaningful. *facepalm* I didn't follow that to its logical conclusion.
Yeah, excellent point!
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OMG, I love Guo Changcheng so much! Determined to do the right thing at any cost, even though he's perpetually (and literally, sometimes) scared out of his wits. And even when Zhu Jiu starts choking him, he doesn't regret it or reneg. *pets*
I just re-watched that set-up scene, and I wonder how much Chu Shuzhi has learned his bluffing techniques from Zhao Yunlan. That casual, "Why kill him when you could torture him and draw it out?" seems like exactly the appealing-to-the-enemy gambit Zhao Yunlan might go for when trying to buy time, I think? And definitely not a Shen Wei tactic!
His hand has even moved to the nape of Chu Shuzhi's neck! It looks so much like he's going in for a kiss, hee! :D
Bless his quaking cotton socks! Seriously!
I think this is key, and I think it explains why he doesn't play along further, because a) as soon as he fake-took Zhu Jiu's bargain, Guo Changcheng would be all up in his face[1], and Zhu Jiu would kill him, and Chu Shuzhi wouldn't be able to stop that without breaking his cover, and b) if Chu Shuzhi pretended to be on Zhu Jiu's side, then strategically Zhu Jiu no longer needs Guo Changcheng or Ye Huo; Chu Shuzhi can walk into the SID and get the Hallows himself. So I don't think Chu Shuzhi can play along with the offered deal (unless I'm missing something). Much as loyalty to the Envoy is at the core of his being, he's also very motivated to protect those around him, especially Changcheng. By laughing in Zhu Jiu's face and taunting him, he's drawing his ire and violence on himself.
[1] cf that bit in ep 16 where Guo Changcheng challenges Chu Shuzhi about whether he'll support Zhao Yunlan as their chief in Zhao Xinci's loyalty mind-game (33:30). Knowing Changcheng, that's likely to play out again here but with fatal consequences this time.
Oh, that's a cool observation! I love that! :D
Undoubtedly, though he also threatens people. When we see him talking to the (otherwise quite decent seeming) hospital attacker in ep 2, he says, "If you blow this, you know your outcome. (在搞砸你知道下场)"
I suspect he's in too much pain to even talk, but if he's clear-headed enough to think, he might well be strategising, coming up with desperate plans to help (or to protect Guo Changcheng if Chu Shuzhi does turn evil), which he's in no state to carry out.
We might have got the shirtless!Chu Shuzhi torture scene a few eps early? *g*
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Quoting this in full because this is an excellent point! And now that you've said it, I think you're exactly right on that, yes.
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By laughing in Zhu Jiu's face and taunting him, he's drawing his ire and violence on himself.
Sigh! Chu Shuzhiiiiiii. ♥_____♥
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I have more fondness for Zhu Jiu than I think is particularly reasonable, and it shows! I was genuinely sad when he died; he was such a fun antagonist to watch fuck up all the time. So melodramatic and emotional. Anyway. I love him. He's terrible. <3
I wonder how much Chu Shuzhi has learned his bluffing techniques from Zhao Yunlan.
Ooooh that's a good point! Yes, he's certainly had to deal with years of watching Zhao Yunlan make ridiculous bluffs as part of trying to talk people down; this would fit right in!
His hand has even moved to the nape of Chu Shuzhi's neck! It looks so much like he's going in for a kiss, hee! :D
Yes! I know! It's incredible! (I apparently took screenshots of exactly this moment during my initial-watching liveblog? This doesn't surprise me. It is very iddy for me.) I mean if Zhu Jiu did kiss Chu Shuzhi in this moment I bet that Chu Shuzhi would like, bite his tongue off or something? Which'd be great, honestly.
I don't think Chu Shuzhi can play along with the offered deal (unless I'm missing something).
I don't think you're missing anything! ^_^ Lovely summary of the potential consequences!
Much as loyalty to the Envoy is at the core of his being, he's also very motivated to protect those around him, especially Changcheng. By laughing in Zhu Jiu's face and taunting him, he's drawing his ire and violence on himself.
Yes! Chu Shuzhi's protectiveness <333 I love him so much, he's such a good person once you get past all the defensive prickliness he surrounds himself with. He cares! A lot! And he knows he can take a hit for the team, so he's gonna put himself in harms way!
We might have got the shirtless!Chu Shuzhi torture scene a few eps early? *g*
I mean I for one would be here for more shirtless Chu Shuzhi scenes, torture-related or otherwise... :)
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Hee! He's so much FUN -- melodramatic and emotional, as you say, and also so inventive! Like using Wang Zheng to get the Awl, and rabble-rousing the Hanga ghosts, and so on. *g*
LOL! (Eww!)
YES! And in some ways, the prickliness just makes it better! *pets him forever*
Which ahh, just makes me think of Shen Wei throwing himself in front of Zhao Yunlan at the end of the show and taking that hit. ;;;;; <3 <3 <3
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Yes! And he's actually surprisingly competent underneath the ridiculousness? He might be making unfounded boasts and getting himself in trouble a lot of the time when he's on-screen, but he accomplishes a lot when he's not directly facing the SID. Ya Qing might disapprove of his zealotry, but she has a very functional working relationship with him. He gets a bunch of recruits! He does all the energy-stealing Ye Zun requires! He's just very... well. he's very chuuni about all of it. (I wish I could think of a better word than chuuni, but that feels like it has all the right connotations...)
Which ahh, just makes me think of Shen Wei throwing himself in front of Zhao Yunlan at the end of the show and taking that hit. ;;;;; <3 <3 <3
oh nooooooooo ;_; <333
(but yes, they do share that trait! <3)
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What does that mean?
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