sid_guardian | Question re death of Chief's mother

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Question re death of Chief's mother

I don't really understand what happens in this scene. Zhao Xinci kills (tries to kill?) a Dixing with his special gun? Why does he make no attempt to negotiate or save his wife? Why does he think she's willing to die? Why is it so urgent that he try to kill this guy?

The bad guy is holding his wife hostage and he does...what? Blows himself and the hostage up? How and why?

Does Zhao Xinci's symbiote play any role in this drama?

And is this bad guy the one who led Butler Wu and others on the expedition to retrieve the Holy Tools?

i don't understand. Someone, have pity on me.

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Hi! My understanding is that the bad guy in this scene has killed a lot of other people. (I think they say nine others, but I don't have time to check right now.) (I don't think we see him again, but it's confusing because all the minor Dixing characters in Haixing wear black hoodies!) ZXC has him cornered here, but the bad guy has Shen Xi (Zhao Yunlan's mum) hostage. Rather than risking the baddie getting away, ZXC decides to shoot at him, risking her getting hurt in the process, believing that she, too, would want the serial killer stopped before he could take more innocent lives. The bad guy sees ZXC shoot, and uses his Dixing power to blow himself and Shen Xi up. I don't think Zhang Shi (the symbiote) is involved.

Other people might have other interpretations of events, though. :-)

Hmm. It's just so...weirdly ungrounded in the rest of the show. It seems like a throwaway scene instead of a major trauma in ZYL's life. Almost all the cases somehow tie into the overall arc, so why not make this more connected or meaningful?

But thanks very much for the explanation!

It always felt like a plot bandaid b/c they needed father issues/alienation.

I think it connects thematically, in terms of sacrifice and loss, though, you know? And in the way Zhao Yunlan's trauma and his father's handling of the situation (and subsequent hardened bigotry) inform a lot of Zhao Yunlan's life choices...

Loss, definitely. But it doesn't feel like sacrifice to me because the hostage doesn't really have any say in the decision. I think that might be what feels most off about this scene.

Perhaps if I think of the theme as revenge and obsession, I can better fit these events into my understanding?

But it doesn't feel like sacrifice to me because the hostage doesn't really have any say in the decision.

Oh, I think it's depicting sacrifice done wrong (ie, sacrificing someone else) -- a bad example that ZYL spends his whole life pushing back against. [ETA: That's why he tells his father in ep 29, when Team Merit Brush have kidnapped Zhao Xinci, "I'm telling you, I'm different from you. Instead of having regrets for twenty years, I will follow my heart from the beginning. I want you to know that it is worth it to sacrifice one's self for one's family!"]

But, you know, ymmv. :-)

Edited (citation!) 2021-04-13 20:33 (UTC)

That makes sense!

I recently convinced one of my childhood BFFs to watch Guardian, so I'm reevaluating certain scenes based on how her reactions. Shen Xi's death is one of them. My friend said she wanted to take it more seriously, but it looked really goofy. I'm much more forgiving of it, but the nitpicky critic in me does agree it is weirdly executed.

(Apologies in advance if the critic in me is a bit too much. >.<)

I always read it as Zhao Xinci planning to shoot the Dixingren criminal, even if that means Shen Xi gets hurt or dies in the process. We never see him try to compromise with Dixingren under any circumstance. That's not his way of solving problems. This reminds me of some of the renegade options in the 'Mass Effect' trilogy; be efficient by eliminating the threat as soon as possible. I'm certain SX knew her husband plenty well enough to know that he'd take this approach, even if she never want him to when she's a hostage. (Sadly there are couples and marriages where one person resigns to the fact their partner will always be the very thing the other dislikes.)

I think I understand what the show wanted to convey here. We see how ZXC's efficient and pragmatic methods force him to have tunnel vision that leads to a disastrous outcome he did not anticipate as a possibility. ZYL resents his father, resulting in him valuing others' lives above his own so much that his perception is just as stubbornly one-note as his father's. They have polar opposite views of sacrifice when a loved one is involved, which are made more singular and extreme thanks to SX's death. And neither ever get to work through their trauma of the event, which just adds to the tragedy of their characters and of the show overall.

However, the lack of setup for the Dixingren criminal, the lack of an explanation as to how Shen Xi got captured, and the lack of a modus operandi for the criminal give the scene less weight than it wants to convey. Also, I have no idea how the criminal blew up. While I like that it happened to show how ZXC didn't anticipate his method backfiring horribly, it still happened in a contrived way due to a lack of buildup to the event. It feels like scenes are missing or the editing was not meticulous enough to convey information clearly.

I believe the emotional logic of how this moment shaped ZYL and ZXC to the men they are in the present is genuine, even if a few more scenes later on had to provide extra support. But I understand why my friend and others have questions.

That said, my biggest issue with the scene is why ZYL is even there in the first place. Maybe it was a "have kid at the office for a while before heading home" day (happened often in the summer with me and my parents). Except that was the day SX gets kidnapped and everyone rushes to the scene, including ZYL b/c he'd otherwise be alone in the office.

Also, Zhang Shi only mentions ZYL when he makes himself known to ZXC, so I think SX had to have been dead. If he was living within ZXC's body during the hostage scene, I think he would have stepped up to try to prevent SX's death by finding other solutions besides "shoot now, ask questions never".

But that's what I've been able to gauge at the moment. Every time I think I figured out something in Guardian, something else appears to make me start at square one again.

I always read it as Zhao Xinci planning to shoot the Dixingren criminal, even if that means Shen Xi gets hurt or dies in the process.

*nodnodnod* That's my reading, too.

I think there are a number of reasons why Zhao Yunlan might have been at the crime scene. Maybe he witnessed Shen Xi's kidnapping and went to his father for help. Or called his father, and Zhao Xinci went home to investigate, realised what had happened and couldn't leave Zhao Yunlan home alone, upset? But I don't think it actually matters: what has stayed with ZYL is that he was there, not why he was there. We see the event through his eyes/memories, which is why there's so little context, imo.

Also, Zhang Shi only mentions ZYL when he makes himself known to ZXC, so I think SX had to have been dead.

In the scene after Zhang Shi moves into Zhao Xinci, Zhao Yunlan calls to ask if ZXC is going to be late for dinner. Their relationship seems cheerful and not strained in that phone call -- it makes Zhao Xinci smile fondly -- so I'm pretty sure it pre-dates Shen Xi's death. Ymmv. :-)

But I don't think it actually matters: what has stayed with ZYL is that he was there, not why he was there. We see the event through his eyes/memories, which is why there's so little context, imo.

That's the conclusion I reach for a lot of moments in Guardian that don't add up in a mechanically logical sense. A younger (and more immature) me obsessed with being an "objective" critic would have been foaming at the mouth over this. Nowadays I'll give a cookie to something not great if an honest effort was made. So, yeah, I completely bought ZYL being there to witness his mom's death because of how much it shattered his world (only for it to happen again later... TT_TT).

In the scene after Zhang Shi moves into Zhao Xinci, Zhao Yunlan calls to ask if ZXC is going to be late for dinner. Their relationship seems cheerful and not strained in that phone call -- it makes Zhao Xinci smile fondly -- so I'm pretty sure it pre-dates Shen Xi's death. Ymmv. :-)

Fair enough! I'll keep that in mind when my friend and I get to that episode to see if I catch it. There's always a detail or two that puts holes in my hypotheses. Thanks!

That's the conclusion I reach for a lot of moments in Guardian that don't add up in a mechanically logical sense. A younger (and more immature) me obsessed with being an "objective" critic would have been foaming at the mouth over this. Nowadays I'll give a cookie to something not great if an honest effort was made.

I'm not sure what you mean by "not great"! Guardian is perfect as it is! (Also, it's like 1000% more coherent and ambitious in scope and rich in emotional arc than any of the English-language shows I've ever been fannish about.)

(There are corners of the fandom where it's common and expected to diss the drama, but this isn't one of them, so when I come across it, I can't help getting protective/defensive -- it's where my fannish heart lives!) (But you know, super happy to see new faces around and discuss/analyse specific aspects!!)

(There are corners of the fandom where it's common and expected to diss the drama, but this isn't one of them, so when I come across it, I can't help getting protective/defensive -- it's where my fannish heart lives!)

No worries! That's why I apologized in advance just in case I erred too much on the critical end of the spectrum. I overanalyze stuff I love, even if it means I have to always find the perfect balance between being a gushing fangirl and dissecting it like a doctor. It's how I process information to gauge my thoughts and feelings about something.

No matter what complaints I have, Guardian is still one of my top 5 favorite tv series ever. (ZYL finding out SW is HPS is the best "discovering the secret identity" plotline I've ever seen, the most important emotional beats in the plot all hit me like a truck on my first viewing, and I'll forever defend the ending as a beautifully executed tragedy that isn't commonly accomplished.)

I also love both the drama and the novel, so there is no competition between the canons for me. Thanks for the friendly reminder, regardless! :)

♥

Yes, yes, yes. I'm on my first rewatch, trying to figure out what's really going on and also trying to get a friend to join in. It's difficult to explain without spoiling, especially when there's so much I don't understand myself.

Your take on the death of the Chief's mother rings true to me. I literally couldn't tell what was happening. I didn't know who the hostage-taker was, and I still don't understand why ZYL was there. But I can fit the event into my worldview if it's intended to show just how obsessed and emotionally immature Zhao Xinci is. (Now that I think about it, the killing of Gu Ban raises similar issues for me. Why make it so hard to understand what really happened, even after the full story is revealed?)

I'm intrigued by the mention of goofiness. I had the same reaction to the final three episodes. I expected tragedy--hello, brickbat foreshadowing--but I was genuinely upset at the elements that felt unnecessarily *cheesy*. For instance, that UGH stomach setting. That I don't get. And it bothered me so much that Shen Wei looks like he smeared Mom's lipstick over his face. I know there was little budget, but better fake blood could be made in my kitchen right this minute. Why are they breaking my heart and (seemingly) treating it like the third-grade play?

This week I found my own explanation that makes these elements less grating for me. I haven't been around long enough to know if others have talked about this, and I hesitate to bring it up, as it might be culturally insensitive. But here goes: it looks very much to me like the makeup and blood for our heroes is a deliberate echo of kumadori makeup in Japanese kabuki theater. That makeup stylizes the violence and somewhat reduces its horror. More important, it transforms Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan into mythological heroes. (The villain is also wearing the colors associated with the bad guy in kabuki, I think.) Somehow this makes me feel much better about the way Shen Wei's death is depicted. It is melodrama, but Shakespearean melodrama rather than Snidely Whiplash vs. Dudley Doright.

A couple interesting links if anyone wants to dig into this. (Is Shen Wei the quiet hero? the supernatural one? the lover? all of the above...What about Zhao Yunlan?)

https://www2.ntj.jac.go.jp/dglib/contents/learn/edc25/en/kumadori-makeup/types.html

https://katieinthecorner.wordpress.com/portfolio/research-kumadori/

I'm on my second rewatch, and I'm kinda hoping my friend decides to bail before episode 38. I deliberately skipped the final three episodes on my first rewatch because the ending left me emotionally broken for weeks.

(Now that I think about it, the killing of Gu Ban raises similar issues for me. Why make it so hard to understand what really happened, even after the full story is revealed?)

It makes me want to go to the alternate universe where the production company didn't go bankrupt so Guardian shines in its big budget glory. But that means no Zhu Yilong, so I choose to be content with this universe's Guardian. That said, I wonder if some scenes were over-edited while others were under-edited as everyone tried to put Guardian together before it got approved for release. Even the most meticulous person has a few oversights and mistakes left behind in the final product.

I'm intrigued by the mention of goofiness.

It took a few months and me rewatching early seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (boy they did not age well visually) for me to finally see Guardian as a campy show overflowing with love. I can nitpick for hours on everything the show does wrong, but there are wonderful things here that do not exist in much better shows I've watched and I'll sing those praises until the end of time.

The goofiness that I found the most jarring tended to be from some of the acting, the direction, or the cinematography rather than set pieces, but there were some exceptions (i.e. the stomach lounge as someone once called it). Like how I forgave the of silly details in showing Shen Xi's death, I was so caught up in the emotions that Bai Yu's anguished screaming overwhelmed my poor brain too much to notice that the pillar wobbled like a bowling pin a few times.

This week I found my own explanation that makes these elements less grating for me. [...] That makeup stylizes the violence and somewhat reduces its horror.

My own knowledge is limited, but it seems that violence can sometimes be framed as less graphic and horrifyingly detailed in some other cultures compared to that in American film and TV. Even decent Japanese films I've seen that are not explicitly a horror or war film tend to make anything violent or bloody more cartoonish than realistic. China is obviously different, yet every country makes some visual elements more realistic and others more unrealistic, depending on what they consider appropriate or taboo.

I am speaking vaguely rather than referencing specific cultural traditions, but I think you do raise an interesting point. I'm not Chinese, so there are subtextual and cultural clues that I definitely missed. But I do agree that the ending feels similar to a Shakespearian tragedy, like Hamlet or Othello, because the story ended due to the characters' understandable actions and their relatable flaws leading them to their fates. This kind of ending is not common, and it's rarely well executed like it is in Guardian.

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Question re death of Chief's mother

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