Thoughts on the end

[clevermanka]

It was suggested that I link a post about my thoughts on the ending, so...I'm also pasting the relevant section here in case people don't want to see a couple personal life updates that are in the linked post. I hadn't thought about it being something I should maybe highlight for general fandom discussion--whoops!

I like the ending. It hurts, oh how it hurts, but it's so beautifully constructed from at least episode three that I can't be mad at it. Current western media has a noticeable lack of well-constructed tragedies and this is such a gorgeous one that I can't hate it. No plot twists, no gotcha moments, just a slow build to a Pyrrhic victory that the show producers left justttttt open enough for plausible fix-its. ranalore posted about the last several episdoes a couple days ago, and just yes. All that. The way our beloved heroes hit the ground running after Zhao Yunlan gets back from the past and things just. don't. slow. down until they ... well, stop. And while I probably wouldn't have complained about a canon happy ending for the drama, I feel like, the way it was presented from the early episodes, it wouldn't have been as...idk, powerful? Guo Changcheng sorta being hinted as the lantern wick was a great red herring and made ZYL's sacrifice more believable because of course ZYL would throw himself on that grenade before letting anyone else do it.

And yes, the Bury Your Gays chafes, but the fact that they presented the ending the way they did, considering the Chinese Tragic Romance Tradition, lends a bit of weight to the fact that this is an Actual Romantic Love Story.

Also, I am an emotional sadomasochist.

Comments

[trobadora]

Ooh, thank you for crossposting this here! It's such a lovely bit of meta. :D

I'm just going to copy my comment over here too, because why not? *g*

I don't think it's a Pyrrhic victory? There's no sense of futility at all; they do save the world. And Shen Wei even gets a reconciliation with his brother. I'd say there's a sense of achievement about it, which is part of why I love it so much. It's not the kind of tragedy where you go, ack, if only you hadn't! And yeah, on top of that the ending is open enough to remain hopeful - it refuses any kind of finality, and so mitigates the sadness. Because they WILL find each other again.

And I know some people are disappointed that Xiao-Guo as the wick didn't go anywhere, but to me, the ending is built up to foreshadowed so well, I really can't see the Xiao-Guo thing as anything but a red herring. (There's even a lantern in Zhao Yunlan's flat! And he has a lantern fruit as his lock screen!)

I was just saying to china_shop the other day that I really can't think of any other ending that would have been nearly as satisfying, even if it had been happier. And I still maintain that what I want most is not a different ending, but a second season where they do find each other again. ♥

And yes, the Bury Your Gays chafes, but the fact that they presented the ending the way they did, considering the Chinese Tragic Romance Tradition, lends a bit of weight to the fact that this is an Actual Romantic Love Story.

Yes! And also, the show utterly commits to the pairing, all the way through. It remains the focus, centre and heart. Not for a moment do we have to doubt that these two are ALL about each other, that nothing short of saving the world could tear them apart. They would never willingly leave each other, and the ending doubles down on that even after death, which is just, ♥ ♥ ♥

(Er. That was a lot of words. But I have a lot of feelings about the ending. SO many feelings, OMG.)

[clevermanka]

I'm glad it spoke to you! Yay for spreading the conversation!

[riventhorn]

I never noticed ZYL's lantern accoutrements!

It never actually occurred to me while watching that Xiao-Guo might be the lantern wick. I felt it was quite apparent as we went along that Shen Wei was going to be noble and self-sacrificing and that ZYL would never let him do it alone.

As you know, I found the ending very satisfying too. It felt very true to the narrative and characters for me.

[trobadora]

zeest discovered the lantern fruit lockscreen here!

I watched it all so fast, I had no time to form much of an expectation, but I did know going in that people had been complaining about a bad ending, so I was afraid of something truly terrible, like Zhao Yunlan surviving without Shen Wei ... (Later, I found out about the terrible schoolboys ending that might have happened, and that would have been even worse than the worst thing I'd imagined.)

I love the ending we actually did get so much.

[bonibaru]

I'm just coming in here to represent for team trobadora in that I 100% share your feelings on the ending.

I was uglycrying, sure, but convinced that they're meeting again, and just try to stop them! You will fail!

And even Priest gave us a side door out of the depressing thought that their interaction in the wormhole was the end. Even the terrible original ending was pointing in that direction. THEY ARE MEETING AGAIN. YOU WILL ONLY BE ABLE TO PRY THAT CONCEPT OUT OF MY COLD DEAD BRAINS LONG AFTER I TOO AM DEAD.

[trobadora]

♥ ♥ ♥

[abyss_valkyrie]

I think we're all a little bit emotionally sadomasochist,or why would we be watching this show over and over again knowing what's to come? But you are so right about the ending being that much more of a punch because of the overall atmosphere of the show.It's like,yeah there were happy,comic,cutesy,friendly moments but after a while you could feel some sort of serious tension present around the characters.Obviously happy endings are great but this ending-ugh-it was perfect,I'm so glad they actually gave us Shen Wei and Yunlan until the last second of the series.And thanks to that we have a whole lot of opportunities for fix-its and AUs. :3

[clevermanka]

I think we're all a little bit emotionally sadomasochist,or why would we be watching this show over and over again
POINT. =D Maybe that's why I feel so at home in this fandom, too. <3

[bonibaru]

I think we're all a little bit emotionally sadomasochist,or why would we be watching this show over and over again

wow just @ me next time ok (lol)

It's a cathartic experience to watch them go from total strangers to husbands who are so in tune with each other that they both make the same choice in the end. I'm gonna go with the catharsis angle but lbr I had to first lock my inner emotional masochist in a trunk so I could type that lol

[ranalore]

I'll paste my comment over here, too, since it looks like the discussion may have migrated. *G*

If my post in any way inspired this eloquence and love, then the time I spent on it was WORTH IT. While I can understand the perspective of people who wish there'd be a happy ending, and who see GCC as the wick as a dropped thread, I continue to love the ending. It's just so cathartic, and for me, it definitely is a huge factor in my utter devotion. Because I feel it fully gives the characters over to us, if that makes sense, which it may not. Just, I've spent about the past ten years with fandoms imploding and feeling like they're being deliberately and maliciously broken by their creators (during one of the worst personal times of my life, and the two certainly fed each other). So, coming into a new fandom that is not only a closed canon, but a closed canon in which the two main characters both gave their lives to save the world, so there was an ending, but also met in the afterlife and made a promise to find each other again, so there was canon potential for a new beginning, in addition to all the fix-it possibilities...well. It really is a perfect story, in that way. Hope or sorrow—hope and sorrow—whatever direction I want to go in riffing on the ending, I'm not breaking anything. The tragedy has already happened. The story goes on.

[clevermanka]

Thank you! And I realize I should have asked you before linking your post. Mea culpa and apologies.

[ranalore]

No worries! It's a public post, and mostly Guardian-related. I haven't been linking every 30 Days of Guardian post so as not to clutter up the comm, but I'll link the last one and mention people can search by the tag, so that one would be searchable, anyway.

[tassosss]

I think your point about it being "cathartic" is really on point. I feel like so much tv these days is about shock value, and while having some twists are fine, they're not the same as catharsis where you get that emotional cleansing in a tragedy because you know that to do big things like save the world they had to give of themselves, and it happens in an overall quite satisfying sequence of events that build and build, even as you see what it's building toward.

They didn't die because time ran out, or stray bullets, or to give another character a reason to cry. They died with open eyes because it was the only way to take out Ye Zun and save Dixing. I think that's why the bury your gays doesn't bother me very much in Guardian the way that it has completely soured me on other shows.

[extrapenguin]

They didn't die because time ran out, or stray bullets, or to give another character a reason to cry. They died with open eyes because it was the only way to take out Ye Zun and save Dixing. I think that's why the bury your gays doesn't bother me very much in Guardian the way that it has completely soured me on other shows.
+1. Especially when combined with the traditional Chinese romance tropes being very much about tragedy and death.

[china_shop]

They didn't die because time ran out, or stray bullets, or to give another character a reason to cry. They died with open eyes because it was the only way to take out Ye Zun and save Dixing. I think that's why the bury your gays doesn't bother me very much in Guardian the way that it has completely soured me on other shows.

Yes, exactly! <3 <3 <3

[naye]

As someone who always feels chafed raw by the ending, I'm curious what your take as someone who appreciated it is on the permanent separation of Dixing and Haixing? Because one of the things that hurts me the most is that the entire 40 episodes of the series seems to build towards "Dixingren are just like us" where they get over the 10k year old scars and prejudices left by the war and rebuild a society where they can integrate Dixing and Haixing...and then at the very end we learn that, no, they just completely isolated Dixing and now the two are forever separated.

I'm also curious about how liking the end meshes with reading fix-its and fic set in an "everyone lives" AU. Because for me, the reason I want to read that kind of fic is that I'm looking for something I feel like I didn't get in canon. So I would imagine that if you were satisfied with what canon delivered, you wouldn't want to read things that directly contradict that thing you liked?

[trobadora]

I hope you don't mind me chiming in here!

For the Dixing/Haixing separation, I really don't like it either for all the reasons you mention. But the ending feels so open and hopeful to me, I have a hard time seeing that separation as final. Actually, it just occurred to me (and I can't believe I didn't realise this before!) that the Dixing/Haixing separation can be seen as sort of a larger-scale mirror or metaphor of Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan being separated. So if they are going to find each other again (and they are!), the Dixing/Haixing separation should be likewise temporary. Does that make sense to you?

For the fix-its and handwavey AUs, since I love the ending I don't regard them as necessarily fixing anything, but I love canon divergence at any point in the timeline, and can never get enough of alternate versions of events or all kinds of potential futures. So I want to read them all! Give me EVERY version of these two together.

(The only thing that can put me off a fix-it is if it treats the show's actual ending as stupid or worthless. That just makes me feel defensive of the show.)

[naye]

I feel like maybe I've got a different read on "canon" here? Because to me the hopefulness and them seeing each other again and Haixing and Dixing not being separated forever is something the drama doesn't give me - the drama kills Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan (and Ye Zun and Wang Zheng and Sang Zan and Lao Li) and leaves them dead, and leaves Dixing isolated from Haixing - so I have to seek that hopefully feeling out elsewhere.

I'm actually really confused by your "and they are!", because there is nothing in the drama that does more than show us they want to meet again. We don't even get a hint of that reunion ever taking place (other than in our hearts and in our fanworks).

[clevermanka]

I can't believe I didn't realise this before!) that the Dixing/Haixing separation can be seen as sort of a larger-scale mirror or metaphor of Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan being separated
How...how did I not see this, either? *mind blown*

I love canon divergence at any point in the timeline, and can never get enough of alternate versions of events or all kinds of potential futures
SAME.

[xparrot]

Hmm, so one of the reasons you like the end is that you don't see it as the end...the end of the show maybe, but not the end of the story?

While as I've read commentary from people more familiar than I am with Chinese shows and lit that the end is meant to be ultimately tragic -- eternal separation is a common theme for Asian stories, and the tragedy of Guardian is the depth of their sacrifice. Zhao Yunlan didn't just sacrifice his life to the lantern; he sacrificed his soul, taking it out of the cycle of reincarnation. So Shen Wei will enter the wheel, have his memories erased and be reborn, while Zhao Yunlan burns forever. Their final promise to one another is a futile hope, and they're crying because they both know it's futile. That that's the last time they'll ever stand together.

And I can see the appeal of that kind of tragedy, but...it's so much not what I wanted for them, and not in keeping with what the show was to me...the only way I can really love the show is by rejecting that end, by denying its intent and replacing it with the future together that I wanted to see for them!

[clevermanka]

Well, the separation is another that needs to be fixed in the second season! =D Seriously, though, I don't like that aspect of it, and I think it undermines a message of the show. I don't understand why they included it--wasn't necessary or even appropriate for the narrative. I have to wonder (Doylist hat) how much of that plot point was influenced by outside/cultural pressure?

I contain multitudes, so I love the "everyone lives" and handwavey-ending fics. I have zero problems being contradicted when it comes to headcanons. In fact, I enjoy it--as long as it's not done rooodly. The more theories, the better, imo!

[naye]

It's been really fascinating to realize that "liking" the ending includes all of these caveats and not liking some things as they are but sort of mentally adding "this will eventually be fixed"?

Because for me, when I like an ending, it means I'm left satisfied in every way and wouldn't really want more of the show. (Babylon 5 comes to mind - yeah, sure, I sobbed my way through the last episode but it's perfect the way it is.) And yes, this is a very high bar! (I have a tendency to avoid watching endings because then I can't be disappointed...)

But I like how the common point for Guardian fans is that we all desperately would love a season 2. ♥

[winter_blossom]

Aww, how come I totally missed this post!? The discussion is probably over and done with already, but I did write a veritable novel on the topic for one of my 30 Days of Guardian posts, so I figured I'd add the relevant parts here, if nothing else for my own future reference *embarrassed shrug*

The answer to this is two-fold. Would I have loved it if they'd defeated Ye Zun with minimum collateral damage and not a single sacrifice, and the story ended with, "Then the SID and the Black-Cloaked Envoy overhauled the whole political structure of Dixing, renegotiated the Treaty, worked towards dispelling anti-Dixingren/Yashouren attitudes among Haixingren (and vice versa) and worked towards creating a world where all three species could live and let live in relative harmony"? Hell, yes! Do I think it was feasible for the show writers to have pulled that off if they'd really wanted to? Also yes. However...

I personally haven't been able to come up with a plausible fix-it scenario, and the existing attempts in fic, while ingenious enough, are a bit too focused on "forgiving and reforming Ye Zun" to be entirely to my taste. Shen Wei had been trying to talk to his brother for decades and he wouldn't even tell him why he hated him; what makes it more likely that he'll listen now, when he's finally broken free and so close to attaining his revenge? I don't believe that he'll be any more (and not less) inclined to see sense once Zhao Yunlan becomes involved, because those two hated each other since the moment they first met, and changing that is way too out-of-character for both of them.

All in all, despite its flaws, I still loved the canon ending. I loved how selfless and so, so brave Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan were, how they both made comparable sacrifices in line with the duties they'd sworn themselves to, even how they echoed each others' last words (and such epic ones, at that). I loved how Shen Wei offered Ye Zun peace at the end, despite everything he took from him; not because I think Ye Zun deserved it, but because it proved to us how different the two brothers are: Ye Zun resented Shen Wei for a perceived insult, while Shen Wei had it in him to forgive Ye Zun for an actual one. And to top it all off, we got the pendant scene and the epilogue, both of which were amazingly acted and heartbreakingly beautiful.

I loved that we got to see how the SID and even Dixing was doing so well one year later: Zhu Hong rocking the house as Chief Elder, Li Qian climbing the ladder at the Ministry with Guo Ying as Minister (and LOL @ ex-Minister Gao, forced to be subordinate to his own former subordinate!), Chu Shuzhi and Guo Changcheng going strong and Guo Changcheng now much more confident about his place in the SID, An Bai free of that god-awful throne, Dixing having its own sun and the whole place looking much more cheerful for it... The only people who actually seemed sad were Da Qing and Lin Jing, since they're the ones who lost the most personally (and who, ironically, are my two favourite non-Yunlan SID members - it's disturbing how accustomed I am to my favourite characters never being allowed happiness, and not just in Guardian!), but that was okay, at least as a reminder that not everything is cream-and-roses at the end of a war.

The separation of Dixing from Haixing struck me as a bit odd at first, but it did make sense in its own way. For one, there's no longer an Envoy or a Guardian to keep the peace, so what would happen if the portals just stayed open like they'd always been? For another, according to the novel the original function of the Guardian Lantern is to stabilise the two realms and stop Hell from corrupting the human world by separating them from each other, with Kunlun being the original wick... Which explains a hell of a lot about what happened in the drama finale, when you give it half a thought! Unfortunately, the drama itself doesn't explain any of this, which again: poor planning.

My sister says she, personally, resents how the minor characters/couples got to live happily in a world built on the major characters'/couples' sacrifices, and while that's certainly fair enough, I prefer to see it this way: what would have been the point of everything Shen Wei, Zhao Yunlan and all the others who gave their lives to defend against Ye Zun's insanity did, if their people weren't happy with the results? For the sake of those who died, more than anything, I want those they left behind to move on and build a great future for themselves, in Haixing and Dixing both. And the show did give us that, along with hope for Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan's future as well, so at the end of the day, I'd label the finale "quite satisfactory."

[clevermanka]

Having it here on the comm means people can come back to reference it. I didn't think this post would take off like it did, so I'm glad china_shop recommended I do. Similarly, I'm glad you took the time to copy part of your post into the comments. Thank you!

It beautifully articulates a lot of my own feelings. I'm kinda pants at verbalizing critical analysis--I know what I ~feel~ but I'm not so good at putting it into words. So I really appreciate it when someone else comes along to say something like the above and I can just point to it like "yes! this!"

it's disturbing how accustomed I am to my favourite characters never being allowed happiness
SAME. My faves usually die. If I become even slightly emotionally attached to a secondary character, it's upwards of 80% chance they'll bite it before the end of the show.

existing attempts in fic, while ingenious enough, are a bit too focused on "forgiving and reforming Ye Zun" to be entirely to my taste
This is something I'm struggling with for my (eventual) fix-it fic. I know what Ye Zun needs to do to make the fic work, and it happens off-screen, but I still need to know why/how he gets to the point to do The Thing.

she, personally, resents how the minor characters/couples got to live happily in a world built on the major characters'/couples' sacrifices
That's what makes it an authentic tragedy, imo, and not just the type of thing we're used to seeing portrayed in a lot of current media. And I mean, not liking tragedies is a legit personal preference! But for those of us who (stupidly) do, it was a gift (although one I like to see embellished after receipt).

[winter_blossom]

I'm kinda pants at verbalizing critical analysis--I know what I ~feel~ but I'm not so good at putting it into words.

While I'm the exact opposite: I can write way-too-lengthy critical essays and arguments and whatnot, but could never write a beautiful, evocative fic like you (and lots of others on this site!) do. I always end up sounding so...unemotional and matter-of-fact, like I'm writing a thesis or something! (I used to be a bit good at creative writing when I was in school, but then spent years and years in university writing nothing but logical analyses and now can't for the life of me express myself without sounding like a robot >_<)

The Ye Zun situation sure is complicated! I'm not very forgiving, so I'd want him to make amends in a big way for all the deaths he caused - but at the same time, most of those deaths need to have happened for the plot to have occurred at all (like Wang Zheng and Sang Zan had to cause that disruption by sacrificing themselves or else the all-important time travel couldn't have occurred!) so just using, I dunno, time travel to undo everything won't work either.

I suppose that's the merit in post-canon fix-its, since then Ye Zun would have realised the error of his ways and be at least somewhat willing to repent a bit. But at the same time, can a personality that was established over so long just change like that? And it still doesn't really resolve the issue of all the destruction he caused in Haixing and Dixing, and how much of a Wanted Person with several death sentences on his head he'd be in both worlds because of that. So probably the ideal fix-it, for me, would be one which would manage to save as many of the good guys (including SW and ZYL, obviously!) without saving Ye Zun, but, well, that might be impossible, logistically speaking. Changes manages to do this beautifully (and is hands-down my absolute favourite fix-it to date), but it's a drama-novel fusion, so technically doesn't count.

I think another track that people take is going the OT3 route with them, which might possibly work to, I dunno, "tame" Ye Zun a bit, but I personally would never read such a fic - I'm way too invested in SW/ZYL to ever be able tolerate someone else in the mix - even in a total AU, let alone a canon divergence one. (All power to people who're into that combo, of course! Just not my cup of tea ^^)