Poll: Some questions about novel Weilan (major spoilers)

[china_shop]

This contains major spoilers up to the epilogue, so I'm cut-tagging. Also, I'm not a huge fan of the relationship dynamic in the novel. Please approach with due caution.

Poll #33476 Mindwipe, sacrifice, and souls

Open to: Registered Users, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 6

View Respondents

Why did Shen Wei wipe Zhao Yunlan's memory? (check as many as you like)

View Answers

to cut the ties between them, to make it easier to sacrifice himself
0 (0.0%)

so Zhao Yunlan wouldn't grieve his loss (altruistic)
3 (50.0%)

Shen Wei didn't want to die *knowing* Zhao Yunlan would suffer his loss (selfish)
2 (33.3%)

so Zhao Yunlan wouldn't follow him into the Lamp
5 (83.3%)

so Zhao Yunlan wouldn't risk his life trying to get him back, and potentially get hurt in the process
5 (83.3%)

so Zhao Yunlan would forget Shen Wei's broken promise that they would die together
2 (33.3%)

because Shen Wei is a control freak in their relationship, due to his insecurity
2 (33.3%)

other
0 (0.0%)

How much has epilogue!Shen Wei changed? Is he still the kind of person who would plant fake visions and arrange for Zhao Yunlan to catch him cutting to manipulate his feelings? (5 = 100%)

View Answers
Mean: 3.75 Median: 3.5 Std. Dev 0.83

1		0 (0.0%)
2		0 (0.0%)
3		2 (50.0%)
4		1 (25.0%)
5		1 (25.0%)

What is Zhao Yunlan most mad about in the epilogue? (check as many as you like)

View Answers

1. that Shen Wei went alone to die
4 (66.7%)

2. the memory wipe
5 (83.3%)

Shen Wei's self-effacement in 1 & 2
1 (16.7%)

Shen Wei excluding him in 1 & 2
5 (83.3%)

that the memory wipe was meant to erase the part of him that loves Shen Wei
6 (100.0%)

that the memory wipe was meant to rob him of his agency
4 (66.7%)

that Shen Wei didn't tell him his plans
3 (50.0%)

that Shen Wei's love language is still mindfuckery
3 (50.0%)

other
1 (16.7%)

ETA: Oops, I reworded the "how much has Shen Wei changed?" question and made the scale unclear. /o\ 5 = he has changed completely; 1 = he hasn't changed at all.

Comments

[china_shop]

Actually, writing this poll made me realise that in the novelverse world, Shen Wei "erasing" Zhao Yunlan's memories was a necessary part of what made the sacrifice absolute. Not erasing them would have been like cheating the system: he could still have had selfish hope in his heart that Zhao Yunlan might stop him or bring him back somehow, so they could be together. And without a spirit of absolute sacrifice, Shen Wei might not have grown his third soul.

Also, I feel like Zhao Yunlan's method of fighting is 100% a product of having been raised by Daqing over hundreds of lifetimes, and he really could make more of an effort to adapt to Shen Wei.

[trobadora]

a necessary part of what made the sacrifice absolute

Oh wow, I hadn't thought of it that way before, but now that you say it, it's so obvious!

And completely agreed about your second point, too.

[china_shop]

Oh wow, I hadn't thought of it that way before, but now that you say it, it's so obvious!

Right? It's almost reconciled me to the act, even if I still don't like it.

\o/! <3

[facethestrange]

1) To keep him safe/to actually save his life long-term - Zhao Yunlan who remembers Shen Wei would most likely just get himself permanently killed (if he turns into Kunlun I'm pretty sure he loses the possibility of reincarnating again), either together with Shen Wei like they planned, or later while trying to bring Shen Wei back.

2) I'm not voting in this one because the way I see it the only thing Shen Wei changed is his mind - he thought he really wanted Zhao Yunlan to die with him so he did everything to make it happen, and then he realized that he could never actually want that, and he took it all back. And I don't see him doing the lying and manipulating in any other context. So I guess my answer is: he changed completely when it comes to wanting to die together, and he didn't change at all in any other way, because there was nothing else that needed to be changed.

3) Two things: the broken promise (so I voted for "that Shen Wei went alone to die", but it's not the thing itself, it's just that he promised they would do it together) and trying to take away the part of his life that had Shen Wei in it (so I voted for "that the memory wipe was meant to erase the part of him that loves Shen Wei", but I feel like there's more - he would probably be slightly more okay with only forgetting the love? it was worse than that because everything was being taken away, the entire part of his life when he was the happiest). So I also voted other in addition to these two. :)

(Idk how much I want to debate, honestly? :) I know the novel ending is unpopular in this comm, and it's not perfect, but I just appreciate it a lot when the alternative is the drama ending, so. ♡)

[china_shop]

And I don't see him doing the lying and manipulating in any other context.

Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't actually considered that -- he does so much of it over the last two volumes. Hmm.

the broken promise

Oops, I should definitely have included that as an option. *facepalm*

it was worse than that because everything was being taken away, the entire part of his life when he was the happiest

Oof, yeah! (I wonder what SW thought would happen when ZYL went home to see his parents. Like, his mother, especially, knows about the relationship!)

(Totally fair! <3 <3 <3) (I think it's mostly just me and Dora, but we're both very talky, yeah.)

[facethestrange]

"I wonder what SW thought would happen when ZYL went home to see his parents. Like, his mother, especially, knows about the relationship!"

They'd be happy that SW is gone and the possibility of having a regular straight kid is back on the table, lol. (Which is both an actual fact, and also amplified by SW's assumption that people don't generally like him.) I feel like the SID people would have told ZYL about the relationship a lot earlier, so at least there wouldn't be any confusion anymore once he meets his parents, he'd just go 'yeah, we broke up'.

(♡♡♡!)

[china_shop]

Hm, maybe! I'm not sure that's what SW would think? I can't remember for sure, but I was under the impression that all the (culturally expected?) homophobia happened in the kitchen, and ZYL's mum was actually a bit stunned but pretty polite when actually interacting with SW. But very true that SW tends to assume people don't want him around, so... *back to "maybe, yeah"* ;-)

[trobadora]

They'd be happy that SW is gone and the possibility of having a regular straight kid is back on the table, lol.

Yeah, the SID team would be positive about SW, but his parents would just be glad not to have to deal with him any more. I bet they wouldn't even ask what happened if SW was gone, just quietly pretend that whole episode in their son's life never happened.

[trobadora]

1) To keep him safe/to actually save his life long-term

Yeah, I think that is SW's main motivation. It can't really be divorced from wanting so save him from the grief, because the grief is what'd make ZYL do the things that would endanger him, right?

he changed completely when it comes to wanting to die together, and he didn't change at all in any other way, because there was nothing else that needed to be changed.

I do think there's a bit more than just realising he doesn't want ZYL to die even if it's with him. IMO what changes the most is SW's conception of himself - he always believes he's inherently a greedy, selfish, devouring creature, and holding on to Kunlun/ZYL, whom he is the most greedy and selfish about, comes naturally with that. So when he lets go of ZYL, when he finally lets himself understand that what he wants for ZYL is more selfless than that, he also has to let go of that understanding of himself. So that's what actually changed about him, his ability to think of himself as someone who does things for non-selfish reasons.

(I couldn't have put this in words yesterday, but your comment helped me clarify why I think SW has changed. So thank you! ♥)

I don't see him doing the lying and manipulating in any other context

He's obviously capable of large-scale manipulation in other contexts (what he does to defeat Ghost Face), but yeah, I definitely don't think he'd do that to ZYL again under different circumstances, unless the stakes were VERY high.

it was worse than that because everything was being taken away, the entire part of his life when he was the happiest

Oh, ouch, yeah, that's definitely true.

I know the novel ending is unpopular in this comm

FWIW, I think it's actually very popular - china and I are the only people I've ever seen talking about not liking it. Which is possibly why we're reacting so strongly, because we feel like everyone else sees something that we don't.

Sorry if we've been harshing your squee, that was definitely not the intention! /shutting up now

[facethestrange]

"I couldn't have put this in words yesterday, but your comment helped me clarify why I think SW has changed. So thank you! ♥"

Aw yay, I'm glad it worked for you! ♡

"FWIW, I think it's actually very popular - china and I are the only people I've ever seen talking about not liking it. Which is possibly why we're reacting so strongly, because we feel like everyone else sees something that we don't."

I feel like the people who like it are largely not in the comm so I don't get to see them, but that's not at all on you, that's on me not being able to handle the real-time-ness of Discord. :D

It's all good, and I'm glad you have space for that. ♡♡♡

[china_shop]

IMO what changes the most is SW's conception of himself - he always believes he's inherently a greedy, selfish, devouring creature, and holding on to Kunlun/ZYL, whom he is the most greedy and selfish about, comes naturally with that. So when he lets go of ZYL, when he finally lets himself understand that what he wants for ZYL is more selfless than that, he also has to let go of that understanding of himself. So that's what actually changed about him, his ability to think of himself as someone who does things for non-selfish reasons.

Ohh, I really like that. I think you're probably right.

[trobadora]

:D :D :D

[tinypinkmouse]

I haven't been participating in the readalong, and it's been some years since I read the novel. So I'm a bit unsure about what I actually think. I do think Shen Wei's motivation for the memory wipe was at least partly selfish, but I also think he was also sincere in wanting Zhao Yunlan to live and maybe the only way of actually making that happen was to wipe his memory. But yeah it certainly wasn't a nite thing to do.

I also chose multiple options on why Zhao Yunlan is mad, but I think mainly it's probably loss iof agency and Shen Wei trying to make him forget loving him.

Not very deep thoughts, but I tried. XD

Personally I kind of prefer the dynamic in the novel, just a little. But I love both novel and show. It's just that the show is so much easier to write fic for, so I've spent a lot more time contemplating the show than the novel.

[facethestrange]

*HIGH FIVE* :D Except I can't even pick which dynamic I prefer because they're so different to me that they feel like separate categories that are impossible to compare? (To the point that I'm very impressed that one is an adaptation of the other. :D) But they're both definitely #1 in their respective categories. :D :D

And yeah, I also feel like staying alive and keeping his memories of Shen Wei would be pretty much mutually exclusive for Zhao Yunlan. xD

[tinypinkmouse]

Funnily I read the novel at the same time as I watched the drama so a lot of it just mixed together in my head. It's confusing sometimes, especially in the beginning. But yeah, mostly I love them both as their own thing.

[trobadora]

I also think he was also sincere in wanting Zhao Yunlan to live and maybe the only way of actually making that happen was to wipe his memory

Yeah, agreed on that, IMO that's a huge part of SW's motivation.

It's just that the show is so much easier to write fic for

That makes sense! I can imagine the novel being very hard to write for, what with all the mythology and everything.

[tinypinkmouse]

The only things I've ever written for novel verse were very short and sort of vague on the details. I feel like you'd have to do so much research to write anything longer. Also back when I started writing Guardian fic I'd never written anything for cdrama/cnovels fandoms before, and I was only writing very sporadically at all at the time. I was so nervous about writing anything at all! The novel verse felt way too daunting.

[trobadora]

Aw, so glad you found Guardian (in any incarnation) inspiring enough to get over that nervousness! ♥

[facethestrange]

*another high five* :D :D Last time I wrote fics was in 2006 (with the exception of maybe 10 drabbles for random challenges in those two decades), and now I have 40-ish posted fics across all Guardian fandoms since January. :D No longfics in my case (so the novel is easy for me too - I can gleefully ignore all the details, lol), but still, this fandom clearly does that to people. :D ♡♡♡

[china_shop]

Yeah, agreed on that, IMO that's a huge part of SW's motivation.

So (genuine question) do you also think SW didn't want ZYL to re-become Kunlun? Because presumably ZYL's regaining his godhood would come with all his memories intact (or would SW not know that?).

[facethestrange]

"Because presumably ZYL's regaining his godhood would come with all his memories intact (or would SW not know that?)."

Fwiw, I think he had no way of knowing for sure because it's not like anything like that has ever happened before. :P Ohh, and now that I'm thinking about it, it's possible that if Kunlun's spirit was reawakened in a different way, without Shennong's help, he wouldn't have regained his memories? At least that's how this could be interpreted: "If Shennong hadn’t had mercy and let my divine spirit out just before the Four Pillars were established, what would’ve happened to me?" Like, if the divine spirit was let out after the Pillars were established, it would have been too late?

[china_shop]

I do think Shen Wei's motivation for the memory wipe was at least partly selfish, but I also think he was also sincere in wanting Zhao Yunlan to live and maybe the only way of actually making that happen was to wipe his memory.

*nodnod* (Having through about this some more, now I think that "selfish" might not have been the best way for me to have phrased it in the poll; it's more "it was an action that was about him (giving up his connection to ZYL) AND it was an action about ZYL (protecting ZYL and saving him from pain)." Does that make sense?

Those are great thoughts! <3

[trobadora]

it's more "it was an action that was about him (giving up his connection to ZYL) AND it was an action about ZYL (protecting ZYL and saving him from pain)."

That makes sense to me, yeah!

[salamandras]

that Shen Wei's love language is still mindfuckery
I actually did lol at this - I'm not sure if ZYL would've articulated this so well, but wow is it resonating with me. SW is so messed up if I view him as human, and mostly just a bizarre puzzle if I remember he is so very not human.

I'm not careful and reflective on what I've read and have a questionable memory, so this is based on my feelings, but I don't feel like SW changed much at all, it feels more like he now has an equal (or it's almost back to how he felt when he was young with Kunlun) and he's settled in to that more than changed how he acts.

[china_shop]

I actually did lol at this

*wins* :D :D :D

SW is so messed up if I view him as human, and mostly just a bizarre puzzle if I remember he is so very not human.

Ha, yes. I think I just have a bad habit of holding him to human standards, and wow, SO MESSED UP!! /o\

but I don't feel like SW changed much at all, it feels more like he now has an equal (or it's almost back to how he felt when he was young with Kunlun) and he's settled in to that more than changed how he acts.

Oh, right -- so it's like, ZYL doesn't need that hovering protectiveness anymore (just regular, everyday fussing instead)? ;D