In all honesty it reminds me of how Chu Shuzhi used to be in the very beginning episodes with Guo Changcheng. When he was trying to scare the newbie away.
Yes! And Xiao-Guo's overt fear is also very reminiscent of those early episodes. He hasn't been afraid of Lao-Chu in forever! But now Chu Shuzhi is actively trying to scare him off. And there are all kinds of reasons for that - he's lashing out projecting violence and madness because that's what he does when he feels vulnerable, and he doesn't feel like he deserves to hold on to Xiao-Guo, and so on - but I don't think I quite realised before that of course a big part of it all is that after the bait the Regent dangled in front of him in Ye Zun's name, he's planning to go straight after Ye Zun, so of course he's trying to stop Xiao-Guo from following him there! He's all out of common sense in a lot of respects right now, but not so much that he'd voluntarily drag Xiao-Guo into that.
(Also, it just struck me that after Zhao Yunlan last episode trying to push Zhu Hong away, here we have Chu Shuzhi trying to push Guo Changcheng away. And despite both relationships being nothing like each other, neither attempt works. And Chu Shuzhi and Zhao Yunlan have a massive clash, but Zhao Yunlan still defends him to the Minister. All their connections are being tested, and only come out stronger. ♥)
Now Changcheng's dream seems to come true, as Chu Shuzhi grabs him by the throat and pushes him backwards before he lifts Guo Changcheng up off the ground.
Yes! I love how it all ties together! :D
With Ye Zun talking about saving 'him', which could at first be construed to saving Hei Pao Shi, but in the end, he means (I think!!) Chu Nianzhi. Ye Zun does the dirty and illusions a Chu Nianzhi which just puts Chu Shuzhi's heart through the wringer.
I think he does mean Shen Wei first, because that's the immediate situation where he says it - Chu Shuzhi rushing towards the Envoy. But there are layers to it, yeah - and in the end, Chu Shuzhi can't save anyone.
And he lets himself fall for the fake Nianzhi, which just shows how out of it he is. (Very convenient that Shen Wei is unconscious through all of this, because if he weren't, I figure a single word from him would help Chu Shuzhi pull himself together and deal much better with all of this.)
And the whole "kill Guo Changcheng and I'll give Nianzhi back to you" is so evil! But Chu Shuzhi won't take that deal, no matter how out of his mind he is, so Ye Zun has to (fake-)kill him himself.
(Also, OMG, Ye Zun must have so many feelings pretending to be someone else's twin didi! Torturing Chu Shuzhi in his own gege's place! And I wonder if he holds Chu Shuzhi's unwillingness to sacrifice Guo Changcheng for his "brother" against him as a betrayal ...)
Briefly, we see a memory after Chu Shuzhi collapses of the Chu twins
I thought this wasn't a real memory, but part of the fake flashback with the roles of the twins switched, which is a twisted dream the Nightmare Master gives him.
Chu Shuzhi startles awake and looks visibly confused. Zhao Yunlan tries to confirm with Chu Shuzhi that Shen Wei was chained to the sky pillar. Chu Shuzhi hesitantly agrees and says Shen Wei was unconscious and then he says the most telling line (IMO!!) of: I don't really know what's going on. He says Shen Wei didn't seem in danger but he couldn't break the chains. He says Ye Zun wouldn't let him die so easily. Then he says Changcheng was tired, so I sent him back. Chu Shuzhi, still acting confused, says he has to leave now too, but Zhao Yunlan convinces him to go rest in the library, but don't fall asleep.
I initially wasn't 100% sure if this bit was real.
Before this, the Dixing sequence is all real, since we see the follow-up (Shen Wei rescuing Guo Changcheng) later. The Chu twins flashback isn't, since the roles are switched and Nianzhi is portrayed as the cheeky troublemaker and Chuzhi as the earnest one. With this scene, we know Chu Shuzhi did get back to Haixing: he ultimately wakes from the dream here, so presumably Ye Zun sent him back after he fell unconscious, so that part checks out. And he must have reported to Zhao Yunlan after returning, so that makes sense as well. More importantly, Zhao Yunlan sends him to rest in the library, which is where he ultimately wakes up from the dream (next episode), and waking up in the same place as he fell asleep is the most obvious reading. So it makes the most sense to me if this scene is real, and the startling awake a red herring.
There's one reason I doubted it for a little while: Chu Shuzhi telling Zhao Yunlan he sent Guo Changcheng back, pretending he didn't die - but then when he ultimately wakes from the dream, Zhao Yunlan knows the truth anyway. But rewatching the scene again, Zhao Yunlan does seem to have some kind of reaction when Chu Shuzhi says it - I think he knows Chu Shuzhi is in denial. He certainly can't miss how utterly out of it Chu Shuzhi is!
(Also, I think works better if Chu Shuzhi wakes up from a twin-switch fake flashback here in actual reality, and then later wakes up from more twin-switch flashbacks in the dream with Guo Changcheng, confusing reality levels for him!)
Chu Shuzhi pushes back again saying it's impossible and Guo Changcheng says: Chu-ge. Aren't you happy I'm fine? (Nightmare Master is such a manipulator!!!)
Yeah, this is way more targeted than Zhu Hong's dream was, where she was really doing most of the work of not wanting to wake up herself! Here, dream!Changcheng is actively trying to wipe away Chu Shuzhi's doubts and convincing him this is real, pulling out all the stops. So the Nightmare Master's power is quite variable!
(Or is it Ye Zun's mind control power combined with the Nightmare Master's power? Because that sounds like a potent combination!)
As Guo Changcheng speaks we see Chu Shuzhi furtively pinch his thigh and when he feels the pain he smiles, because it means it's not a dream (BUT IT IS CHU SHUZHI IT IS).
I love this little detail! :D
We end with Nightmare Master, I mean Guo Changcheng, tucking Chu Shuzhi back down on the couch to sleep and Chu Shuzhi holding onto Changcheng's hand and looking him in the face.
Yeah, and this should have been the point where Chu Shuzhi realised this couldn't be real, if nothing else did the trick, because encouraging him to sleep while the dream case hasn't been resolved? How about no? Zhao Yunlan even warned him about that earlier!
First, when Chu Shuzhi was talking to Zhao Yunlan he said he sent Guo Changcheng back, but when they see each other it's clear Chu Shuzhi knows what happened. Is this because Nightmare Master had made Chu Shuzhi say those words to Zhao Yunlan? A subliminal message/hypnosis as it were?
I think in that scene with Zhao Yunlan, he's very clearly out of it and full of guilt and grieving, so he still knows what happened even if he's not saying it. And like I said above, I read it as Chu Shuzhi being in denial about what happened, pretending it didn't because he can't face up to the reality of having got Guo Changcheng killed.
But it's great how this denial then ties into the dream where Guo Changcheng is alive, isn't it? The Nightmare Master is tapping into what Chu Shuzhi wants to be true, and given how he reacted to the fake Nianzhi earlier, it's clear that he's very susceptible to this right now.
Fourth, do you think the Nightmare Master's powers give a sense of how a person acts/thinks? That he can fool people so well, or is he just a great manipulator.
I think it must, yeah - not necessarily the real person, but the person as perceived by whoever he's manipulating. His power is so targeted, and he can use it to achieve certain specific ends (like here with Chu Shuzhi, and like we'll see with Lin Jing and the shield), and that has to mean he can deliberately access all those details about the person he's manipulating, and how they see the people they interact with, to make it plausible when he twists it all to his purposes.
We return to the dreams where we get a little more back story about Chu Shuzhi and Chu Nianzhi. We find Chu Nianzhi serving punishment for some infraction.
More of the switched roles! Like Chu Shuzhi says next episode, it's swapping their roles and in reality it was Chu Shuzhi who caused all the trouble, and (in his view) got his brother killed.
So this is a dream within a dream, something Chu Shuzhi knows isn't real - tempting him with a version of reality he might find easier to live with, like Zhu Hong and the dream world where she has Zhao Yunlan all to herself and doesn't have to deal with him prioritising Shen Wei. But here, like shadaras said on Discord, it's not meant to actually trap Chu Shuzhi - instead, waking up from this serves to convince Chu Shuzhi that the reality he wakes up to is actually real, when it's in fact another dream: "It's a lot harder to realise you gotta wake up when you've already woken up once!" And it helps that he already had a similar switched-roles dream a bit earlier.
Finally, our final act has the two walking outside in Haixing, and Chu Shuzhi wishes his dreams were reality and it ends there.
I love how that scene starts with fake!Guo Changcheng waking up, adding another layer of obfuscation to what's real and what's not! And he even reports dreaming about Chu Shuzhi killing him, which is what the real Guo Changcheng dreamed about earlier. (The Nightmare Master would know, obviously!) No wonder we were all so confused on first watch, LOL.
(And in-universe, all the talking about dreams that fake!Guo Changcheng does is presumably meant to convince Chu Shuzhi further that he's now awake ...)
I like how there's a call-back to earlier in the episode when Guo Changcheng was following after Chu Shuzhi in Dixing, but here, instead of anger, there's just exhaustion from Chu Shuzhi.
Yeah, that's a great callback! And I wonder if Lao-Chu's weariness is also because part of him knows this isn't real? If he just doesn't want to face it (yet), and lets himself believe it for a while, while he struggles with the other dream (the switched twin roles), which already isn't easy for him to deal with even though he knows it's not real?
What was your favorite part of this particular episode as we continue into the dream arc of the show? Was it Zhao Yunlan and Chu Shuzhi arguing several times? Was it the cannibal scene? I'm eager to hear!
It's the super intense confrontation between Chu Shuzhi and Zhao Yunlan at the beginning of the episode! Though everything with Chu Shuzhi is gold here. :D
When do you think the dream actually started? Was it when we see Guo Changcheng wake from his nightmare? Or was it after Guo Changcheng was 'killed' by Ye Zun? Or is Guo Chancheng really Guo Changcheng in this whole episode? I'm sure you can see my opinion in my write-up of what I think LOL XD
See above: I think everything until he falls asleep on the sofa in the library for the first time (sans Xiao-Guo) is real, save for the brief flashback-dream with the switched roles. After that, nothing is real.
How do you think Chu Shuzhi got back to the SID after being defeated by Ye Zun? Was it the Nightmare Master's doing? Do you think Zhao Yunlan had an inkling that something was wrong?
Pretty sure Ye Zun sent him back, since he actively wanted him there to use the Nightmare Master's powers against him. And we know he has the power to send people to Haixing.
I don't think Zhao Yunlan could have missed just how out of it Chu Shuzhi was, given how he was stumbling around, and Xiao-Guo's absence is also very conspicuous. I think he knows something must have gone terribly wrong. (I think he'd be angrier at Chu Shuzhi if he wasn't so clearly not doing well - and if Zhao Yunlan didn't also blame himself for sending Xiao-Guo after Chu Shuzhi ...)
Also, do you think with how confused Chu Shuzhi was acting that the Nightmare Master used his powers on him to remember things differently, which is why he acted so confused/stumbled and stuttered?
I think it's mainly grief and shock about what happened to Guo Changcheng, honestly. He can't quite cope with that being the reality, and his own fault for taking Xiao-Guo into Dixing.
Do you think when the Nightmare Master impersonates someone he can actually get a sense of the person with his powers? Or is he just real good at reading people and manipulation?
I didn't get the feeling he entirely impersonated other people - most of the dreams seem more like they're created from the person's own memory, just twisted. But he can deliberately interfere and put himself into a character's place where it suits him.
When the Regent was pretending not to know where Shen Wei was, what do you think that look at the very end was? I felt like it was significant in some ways, but I'm not sure what to read of it.
Good question! I honestly have no idea what's going on with the Regent at this point in time ...
Does everyone have a favorite Ye Zun scene? If so, what it is? :D
We haven't reached it yet in the rewatch, but my favourite Ye Zun bit is the scene at the Ministry with the golden mask and the cane. He just looks amazing. :D
(Honestly, I'm not fond of this "Ye Zun as a black energy cloud" phase, and I'm not sure why it exists.)
I still feel vaguely confused on the Chu twins background. Can someone confirm that I am not reading things incorrectly and that there are at least two (maybe three) versions of the Chu twins background between 32 and 33?
IIRC there are two versions? The fake roleswapped version where Chu Nianzhi was the troublemaker (the Nightmare Master's creation), and the real one where Chu Shuzhi was the troublemaker.
no subject
Yes! And Xiao-Guo's overt fear is also very reminiscent of those early episodes. He hasn't been afraid of Lao-Chu in forever! But now Chu Shuzhi is actively trying to scare him off. And there are all kinds of reasons for that - he's lashing out projecting violence and madness because that's what he does when he feels vulnerable, and he doesn't feel like he deserves to hold on to Xiao-Guo, and so on - but I don't think I quite realised before that of course a big part of it all is that after the bait the Regent dangled in front of him in Ye Zun's name, he's planning to go straight after Ye Zun, so of course he's trying to stop Xiao-Guo from following him there! He's all out of common sense in a lot of respects right now, but not so much that he'd voluntarily drag Xiao-Guo into that.
(Also, it just struck me that after Zhao Yunlan last episode trying to push Zhu Hong away, here we have Chu Shuzhi trying to push Guo Changcheng away. And despite both relationships being nothing like each other, neither attempt works. And Chu Shuzhi and Zhao Yunlan have a massive clash, but Zhao Yunlan still defends him to the Minister. All their connections are being tested, and only come out stronger. ♥)
Now Changcheng's dream seems to come true, as Chu Shuzhi grabs him by the throat and pushes him backwards before he lifts Guo Changcheng up off the ground.
Yes! I love how it all ties together! :D
With Ye Zun talking about saving 'him', which could at first be construed to saving Hei Pao Shi, but in the end, he means (I think!!) Chu Nianzhi. Ye Zun does the dirty and illusions a Chu Nianzhi which just puts Chu Shuzhi's heart through the wringer.
I think he does mean Shen Wei first, because that's the immediate situation where he says it - Chu Shuzhi rushing towards the Envoy. But there are layers to it, yeah - and in the end, Chu Shuzhi can't save anyone.
And he lets himself fall for the fake Nianzhi, which just shows how out of it he is. (Very convenient that Shen Wei is unconscious through all of this, because if he weren't, I figure a single word from him would help Chu Shuzhi pull himself together and deal much better with all of this.)
And the whole "kill Guo Changcheng and I'll give Nianzhi back to you" is so evil! But Chu Shuzhi won't take that deal, no matter how out of his mind he is, so Ye Zun has to (fake-)kill him himself.
(Also, OMG, Ye Zun must have so many feelings pretending to be someone else's twin didi! Torturing Chu Shuzhi in his own gege's place! And I wonder if he holds Chu Shuzhi's unwillingness to sacrifice Guo Changcheng for his "brother" against him as a betrayal ...)
Briefly, we see a memory after Chu Shuzhi collapses of the Chu twins
I thought this wasn't a real memory, but part of the fake flashback with the roles of the twins switched, which is a twisted dream the Nightmare Master gives him.
Chu Shuzhi startles awake and looks visibly confused. Zhao Yunlan tries to confirm with Chu Shuzhi that Shen Wei was chained to the sky pillar. Chu Shuzhi hesitantly agrees and says Shen Wei was unconscious and then he says the most telling line (IMO!!) of: I don't really know what's going on. He says Shen Wei didn't seem in danger but he couldn't break the chains. He says Ye Zun wouldn't let him die so easily. Then he says Changcheng was tired, so I sent him back. Chu Shuzhi, still acting confused, says he has to leave now too, but Zhao Yunlan convinces him to go rest in the library, but don't fall asleep.
I initially wasn't 100% sure if this bit was real.
Before this, the Dixing sequence is all real, since we see the follow-up (Shen Wei rescuing Guo Changcheng) later. The Chu twins flashback isn't, since the roles are switched and Nianzhi is portrayed as the cheeky troublemaker and Chuzhi as the earnest one. With this scene, we know Chu Shuzhi did get back to Haixing: he ultimately wakes from the dream here, so presumably Ye Zun sent him back after he fell unconscious, so that part checks out. And he must have reported to Zhao Yunlan after returning, so that makes sense as well. More importantly, Zhao Yunlan sends him to rest in the library, which is where he ultimately wakes up from the dream (next episode), and waking up in the same place as he fell asleep is the most obvious reading. So it makes the most sense to me if this scene is real, and the startling awake a red herring.
There's one reason I doubted it for a little while: Chu Shuzhi telling Zhao Yunlan he sent Guo Changcheng back, pretending he didn't die - but then when he ultimately wakes from the dream, Zhao Yunlan knows the truth anyway. But rewatching the scene again, Zhao Yunlan does seem to have some kind of reaction when Chu Shuzhi says it - I think he knows Chu Shuzhi is in denial. He certainly can't miss how utterly out of it Chu Shuzhi is!
(Also, I think works better if Chu Shuzhi wakes up from a twin-switch fake flashback here in actual reality, and then later wakes up from more twin-switch flashbacks in the dream with Guo Changcheng, confusing reality levels for him!)
Chu Shuzhi pushes back again saying it's impossible and Guo Changcheng says: Chu-ge. Aren't you happy I'm fine? (Nightmare Master is such a manipulator!!!)
Yeah, this is way more targeted than Zhu Hong's dream was, where she was really doing most of the work of not wanting to wake up herself! Here, dream!Changcheng is actively trying to wipe away Chu Shuzhi's doubts and convincing him this is real, pulling out all the stops. So the Nightmare Master's power is quite variable!
(Or is it Ye Zun's mind control power combined with the Nightmare Master's power? Because that sounds like a potent combination!)
As Guo Changcheng speaks we see Chu Shuzhi furtively pinch his thigh and when he feels the pain he smiles, because it means it's not a dream (BUT IT IS CHU SHUZHI IT IS).
I love this little detail! :D
We end with Nightmare Master, I mean Guo Changcheng, tucking Chu Shuzhi back down on the couch to sleep and Chu Shuzhi holding onto Changcheng's hand and looking him in the face.
Yeah, and this should have been the point where Chu Shuzhi realised this couldn't be real, if nothing else did the trick, because encouraging him to sleep while the dream case hasn't been resolved? How about no? Zhao Yunlan even warned him about that earlier!
First, when Chu Shuzhi was talking to Zhao Yunlan he said he sent Guo Changcheng back, but when they see each other it's clear Chu Shuzhi knows what happened. Is this because Nightmare Master had made Chu Shuzhi say those words to Zhao Yunlan? A subliminal message/hypnosis as it were?
I think in that scene with Zhao Yunlan, he's very clearly out of it and full of guilt and grieving, so he still knows what happened even if he's not saying it. And like I said above, I read it as Chu Shuzhi being in denial about what happened, pretending it didn't because he can't face up to the reality of having got Guo Changcheng killed.
But it's great how this denial then ties into the dream where Guo Changcheng is alive, isn't it? The Nightmare Master is tapping into what Chu Shuzhi wants to be true, and given how he reacted to the fake Nianzhi earlier, it's clear that he's very susceptible to this right now.
Fourth, do you think the Nightmare Master's powers give a sense of how a person acts/thinks? That he can fool people so well, or is he just a great manipulator.
I think it must, yeah - not necessarily the real person, but the person as perceived by whoever he's manipulating. His power is so targeted, and he can use it to achieve certain specific ends (like here with Chu Shuzhi, and like we'll see with Lin Jing and the shield), and that has to mean he can deliberately access all those details about the person he's manipulating, and how they see the people they interact with, to make it plausible when he twists it all to his purposes.
We return to the dreams where we get a little more back story about Chu Shuzhi and Chu Nianzhi. We find Chu Nianzhi serving punishment for some infraction.
More of the switched roles! Like Chu Shuzhi says next episode, it's swapping their roles and in reality it was Chu Shuzhi who caused all the trouble, and (in his view) got his brother killed.
So this is a dream within a dream, something Chu Shuzhi knows isn't real - tempting him with a version of reality he might find easier to live with, like Zhu Hong and the dream world where she has Zhao Yunlan all to herself and doesn't have to deal with him prioritising Shen Wei. But here, like
Finally, our final act has the two walking outside in Haixing, and Chu Shuzhi wishes his dreams were reality and it ends there.
I love how that scene starts with fake!Guo Changcheng waking up, adding another layer of obfuscation to what's real and what's not! And he even reports dreaming about Chu Shuzhi killing him, which is what the real Guo Changcheng dreamed about earlier. (The Nightmare Master would know, obviously!) No wonder we were all so confused on first watch, LOL.
(And in-universe, all the talking about dreams that fake!Guo Changcheng does is presumably meant to convince Chu Shuzhi further that he's now awake ...)
I like how there's a call-back to earlier in the episode when Guo Changcheng was following after Chu Shuzhi in Dixing, but here, instead of anger, there's just exhaustion from Chu Shuzhi.
Yeah, that's a great callback! And I wonder if Lao-Chu's weariness is also because part of him knows this isn't real? If he just doesn't want to face it (yet), and lets himself believe it for a while, while he struggles with the other dream (the switched twin roles), which already isn't easy for him to deal with even though he knows it's not real?
What was your favorite part of this particular episode as we continue into the dream arc of the show? Was it Zhao Yunlan and Chu Shuzhi arguing several times? Was it the cannibal scene? I'm eager to hear!
It's the super intense confrontation between Chu Shuzhi and Zhao Yunlan at the beginning of the episode! Though everything with Chu Shuzhi is gold here. :D
When do you think the dream actually started? Was it when we see Guo Changcheng wake from his nightmare? Or was it after Guo Changcheng was 'killed' by Ye Zun? Or is Guo Chancheng really Guo Changcheng in this whole episode? I'm sure you can see my opinion in my write-up of what I think LOL XD
See above: I think everything until he falls asleep on the sofa in the library for the first time (sans Xiao-Guo) is real, save for the brief flashback-dream with the switched roles. After that, nothing is real.
How do you think Chu Shuzhi got back to the SID after being defeated by Ye Zun? Was it the Nightmare Master's doing? Do you think Zhao Yunlan had an inkling that something was wrong?
Pretty sure Ye Zun sent him back, since he actively wanted him there to use the Nightmare Master's powers against him. And we know he has the power to send people to Haixing.
I don't think Zhao Yunlan could have missed just how out of it Chu Shuzhi was, given how he was stumbling around, and Xiao-Guo's absence is also very conspicuous. I think he knows something must have gone terribly wrong. (I think he'd be angrier at Chu Shuzhi if he wasn't so clearly not doing well - and if Zhao Yunlan didn't also blame himself for sending Xiao-Guo after Chu Shuzhi ...)
Also, do you think with how confused Chu Shuzhi was acting that the Nightmare Master used his powers on him to remember things differently, which is why he acted so confused/stumbled and stuttered?
I think it's mainly grief and shock about what happened to Guo Changcheng, honestly. He can't quite cope with that being the reality, and his own fault for taking Xiao-Guo into Dixing.
Do you think when the Nightmare Master impersonates someone he can actually get a sense of the person with his powers? Or is he just real good at reading people and manipulation?
I didn't get the feeling he entirely impersonated other people - most of the dreams seem more like they're created from the person's own memory, just twisted. But he can deliberately interfere and put himself into a character's place where it suits him.
When the Regent was pretending not to know where Shen Wei was, what do you think that look at the very end was? I felt like it was significant in some ways, but I'm not sure what to read of it.
Good question! I honestly have no idea what's going on with the Regent at this point in time ...
Does everyone have a favorite Ye Zun scene? If so, what it is? :D
We haven't reached it yet in the rewatch, but my favourite Ye Zun bit is the scene at the Ministry with the golden mask and the cane. He just looks amazing. :D
(Honestly, I'm not fond of this "Ye Zun as a black energy cloud" phase, and I'm not sure why it exists.)
I still feel vaguely confused on the Chu twins background. Can someone confirm that I am not reading things incorrectly and that there are at least two (maybe three) versions of the Chu twins background between 32 and 33?
IIRC there are two versions? The fake roleswapped version where Chu Nianzhi was the troublemaker (the Nightmare Master's creation), and the real one where Chu Shuzhi was the troublemaker.