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sid_guardian2023-05-02 08:56 pm
trobadora) wrote in sid_guardian2023-05-02 08:56 pm
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GUARDIAN REWATCH - Episode 16
Beginning of episode: Lin Jing shows Zhao Xinci his lab
Ending of episode: Bao Laosan and Zhu Jiu are ready to attack the SID building
Important scenes/developments:
- the black energy detector goes off when aimed at Zhao Xinci
- Zhao Yunlan visits the Dijun Palace and realises there are political constraints on the Envoy
- Zhao Xinci lectures the SID about Zhao Yunlan abandoning his post
- Zhao Yunlan and the Regent "search" for the Dijun Register
- Zhao Xinci assumes command of the SID for their new case
- Zhao Yunlan and the Regent encounter An Bai and friends staging a faked assault
- Da Qing talks to kittens
- Ye Zun lures Zhao Yunlan towards his pillar, and tries to suborn him; An Bai and friends interrupt
- the Envoy discovers Ding Dun's files were destroyed behind his back
- Zhao Yunlan discovers the Dixing bar, and fails at impersonating a Dixingren
- Sang Zan notices Zhao Xinci is sometimes left-handed, sometimes right-handed
- Wu Tian'en saves Zhao Yunlan from the bar, and warns him about the Regent
- Zhao Xinci threatens to fire Zhao Yunlan if even one SID member agrees
- Zhao Xinci interviews Guo Changcheng, and Zhang Shi calls him his secret weapon him
- Zhu Jiu encourages Bao Laosan to attack the SID building
Thoughts:
- Lin Jing's lab tour is fascinating; I love hearing him talk about his gadgets even if I'm not sure how much of what he's saying is bullshit for Zhao Xinci's benefit. Did the photon detector really help solve important cases? Did all his research and results really come from test bed? *g* Certainly the Hallows aren't his personal collection!
And now it's confirmed: the SID (by which I mean Zhao Yunlan) seems to have deliberately kept info about the Hallows from their own superiors, starting as far back as episode 2. Otherwise, surely the commissioner would be assumed to know about the most important/powerful items at the SID! Fascinating. - Just as Lin Jing praises the accuracy of his black energy detector, it goes off when pointed at Zhao Xinci - and Lin Jing assumes it's broken after all. Zhao Xinci's face when it detects Zhang Shi's presence!
- No one can keep a straight face when Lin Jing claims Zhao Yunlan is notoriously strict! Not even Lin Jing himself. :D
- I'm really fascinated with Da Qing's relationship with Zhao Xinci. He's less cowed by him than everyone else seems to be (which makes sense, since he actually knows him); he's also the one who steps up to explain where Zhao Yunlan is, and several times steps between Zhao Xinci and the team, appeasing Zhao Xinci/defusing the situation. But Zhao Xinci doesn't really treat him as the SID's deputy chief, and Da Qing still seems so much more subdued than usual. I would love to know what their dynamic was when they actually worked together!
- One thing I find a bit annoying: Zhao Xinci treats the SID team as if they're entirely useless without Zhao Yunlan - and they essentially live down to this. Everyone seems paralysed and acts as if they don't know how to conduct an investigation, as if they've never had to search for clues before.
- Meanwhile, at the Dixing palace, Zhao Yunlan sees for the first time that the Envoy for all his power can't do as he pleases in Dixing, but is politically constrained - and that his presence can be a complication for Shen Wei. So he diplomatically removes himself - which leads to him being separated from Shen Wei for the rest of the episode. I assume that was intentional.
And as Zhao Yunlan comes to see more of Dixing, he'll discover that it's not just politics and protocol: the Envoy is in fact met with met with opposition, obstructionism, and outright hostility by some people. The problem, for Shen Wei, is that he could act much more efficiently against all of that if he spent more time in Dixing - but that would mean abandoning his duties on the surface, not to mention the Hallows and Zhu Jiu. (And his personal life, of course.) - Zhao Yunlan and the Regent go out, nominally looking for the Dijun Register - but from the Regent's behaviour, it's pretty clear that's not actually his priority.
Last episode, I was wondering whether the Regent might in fact have orchestrated the Dijun Register's disappearance himself after Shen Wei asked for it, and honestly, the Regent's behaviour here definitely doesn't look like he's in any rush to find it again. He seems entirely uninterested in the search - he doesn't even want to describe to Zhao Yunlan where he last saw it, or what it looks like!
(Of course the Dijun Register is a very useful tool for him, so surely he wouldn't want it actually gone ... But perhaps he thinks Ding Dun is still working for him, so he'll still have access to the book even while it officially is "lost"?) - Zhao Xinci wants Da Qing to question the feral cats around, and discovers Da Qing no longer speaks cat language. What's more, every single one of the rest of the team seems surprised/confused by the request, so it seems he's never used cat language for a case during Zhao Yunlan's tenure! The loss of cat language is recent (he still spoke it ten years ago, when he was working with Zhao Xinci), but not that recent.
Later, we see Da Qing talking to kittens and wondering for himself whether he always knew cat language, and why he can't remember! Anyone have any theory on how/why/when he forgot? - Lin Jing claims that Zhao Yunlan usually "forms a hypothesis first, then tries to verify it" - in other words, theorises ahead of his facts. Which doesn't seem very Zhao Yunlan to me! What Zhao Yunlan is good at is picking out one particular relevant thread at the crime scene or among the people involved, and pulling on that until something comes of it.
(Of course Zhao Xinci, as we learn later, is also good at picking up relevant clues - Lin Jing remarks on it regarding the soil composition report! But since he doesn't share his theories, at the time Lin Jing thinks it's just busy work. And moreover, this clue doesn't actually lead the investigation anywhere.) - The Regent leads Zhao Yunlan right into a trap set by An Bai and one of his friends pretending to assault the other friend. Zhao Yunlan immediately responds to the call for help; the Regent tells him to stay out of it because it might be dangerous, and Zhao Yunlan pushes the Regent forward, thinking he can discover the Regent's power that way. (He can't, because the Regent's power is being a slime.) The Regent is "threatened", and Zhao Yunlan interferes, punching the two men. This is the moment where he looks genuinely surprised - I think here's where he realises what's actually up. The woman offers to "pay him back", and Zhao Yunlan fends her off even though she's insistent.
Zhao Yunlan: "I'm a kind man who doesn't need to be repaid!" - That's not what you said to Shen Wei, LOL. :D
Only when the Regent prods at him about it, Zhao Yunlaln explains his conclusions - love this contrast with how Zhao Xinci describes him! Very much not "jumping to conclusions"! - Love the continuation of the Zhu Hong-and-hypnotism plotline - she still doesn't want to use it, because during the Hanga arc Shen Wei threw it back at her and instructed her not to.
- Zhao Yunlan checks the time on his phone, and we see his lock screen - it's a Chinese lantern fruit. One of whose Chinese names is 金灯, Golden Lantern, so we're in foreshadowing territory here!
(See also: all the many lamps and lantern-like objects in Zhao Yunlan's flat ...) - Ye Zun calls out to Zhao Yunlan by name, lures him towards the pillar - and despite his rather OTT speech ("I am you. I am me. I am everyone."), manages to get under Zhao Yunlan's skin:
"You're using cynicism to hide how uneasy you are. You can't deceive me, and you can't deceive your heart. You live in a sea of people, but don't let anyone know you. You don't know what you're doing anything for. You don't even know whether your actions are right or wrong."
However, An Bai and friends interrupt before Ye Zun can finish offering to teach Zhao Yunlan, and Zhao Yunlan ends up busy trying various strategies to extract himself, showing how resourceful he is even as he's obviously out of his depth: he appeals to them as "fellow Dixingren" (but they don't seem to have much fellow feeling, and can tell he's out of place), physically fights (but An Bai's friend has the delightful power of "hardening his lower body"), invokes the Black-Cloaked Envoy's friendship (but they see the Envoy as a traitor), and finally resorts to "look! behind you!" Which works! :D - Running from An Bai et al., Zhao Yunlan steals a mask and enters the Dixing bar, where Wu Tian'en seems to recognise him immediately, and tries badly to impersonate a Dixingren. His usual fast-talk works against him here, because he keeps dropping remarks that make no sense in a Dixing context. We learn Dixing doesn't have masquerades, schools, or hospitals.
(To be honest, I find this scene excruciating to watch; it hits my embarrassment squick so badly!) - Zhao Xinci sits in the SID library reading a book and taking notes, and has a conversation with Sang Zan, who says he's here because he loves a girl here. Zhao Xinci says the person he loves is also at the SID, and talks about the pleasure of reading a book in peace, before signing out and leaving behind the Ancient Mysteries book which we'll later learn mentions Kunlun. And when before he wrote with his left hand, now he signs with his right. I love that Sang Zan picks up on the difference in handedness!
Given that Zhao Xinci is definitely the one who right-handedly aims his gun at Guo Changcheng in episode 36, the entire left-handed scene must be Zhang Shi. - Wu Tian'en saves Zhao Yunlan at the bar, and Zhao Yunlan tells him, "Just like I thought, you're not behind bars." - At this point he's confident that even when the Envoy takes someone back to Dixing, that doesn't necessarily mean they're put in prison. We learn Wu Tian'en is working for the Envoy now - so the Envoy does have people working directly for him in Dixing. Wu Xiaojun was sentenced, though - the Envoy didn't let him off entirely (but promised to work on shortening his sentence).
- Wu Tian'en's shock when Zhao Yunlan mentions the Regent seems to be the first time Zhao Yunlan really realises the Regent is actually dangerous. Despite how quickly he picked up on the fake assault earlier, it seems he still bought into the Regent's "weak and harmless" persona to some degree. Even with Wu Tian'en's description of him as infamous in Dixing, Zhao Yunlan still doesn't seem very wary, and talks about using the Regent. But when the Regent reappears just then, we can see Zhao Yunlan looking at him differently now, reassessing.
(And later at the palace, Zhao Yunlan is shocked to discover that Wu Tian'en isn't just feeling nostalgia, but also disgust at the place. There's something very wrong in Dixing government!) - Love the little moment of Zhao Yunlan almost saying Shen Wei's name, but catching himself in time: he's still keeping Shen Wei's secrets. ♥
- Back at the SID, we learn that Zhao Yunlan is the third-generation SID chief - there must have been another in between Zhao Xinci and him, so Zhao Yunlan didn't take over directly from his father. I wonder what happened to both previous chiefs' teams, since only Da Qing was already around when Zhao Yunlan took over!
- The whole "let's dismiss Zhao Yunlan" approach is set up to not actually encourage it - "if only one of you agrees, he'll be fired" only makes the team pull together more closely, which seems to be the point.
Much of what Zhao Xinci says and does in this episode seems to be designed to provoke the team - and push them into strengthening their support for Zhao Yunlan. And I do think it works - this experience of standing together against Zhao Xinci and his anti-Zhao Yunlan agenda solidifies them as a team, as well as making all of them aware of their shared loyalty. But at the same time, how much is Zhao Xinci enjoying getting to let out all his frustrations about his son, criticising him left and right, while he can justify it as motivating his team rather than undermining the SID's work?
(And he's also letting his bigotry show when he tells Guo Changcheng: "Da Qing has worked at the SID the longest. The others either possess a risky identity or don't have potential for greatness. Only you have a clean background." I do think those are his true feelings coming out, with the "risky identity". Ugh. Fascinating that Da Qing seems to be in a separate category for him to some degree, though.) - Btw, regarding the loyalty question - on the one hand, good on Xiao-Guo for speaking up even against Lao-Chu! But on the other hand, Lao-Chu has every right to feel offended by Xiao-Guo thinking so badly of him.
- Zhang Shi shows himself properly for the first time!
- When everyone rushes to the second crime scene, Zhao Xinci isn't along. I find it fascinating how much more competent they all suddenly appear, without Zhao Xinci to lecture them - even though they were clearly deliberately lured away from the SID, so Bao Laosan and Zhu Jiu could attack the SID building (and presumably so Zhu Jiu can get the Hallows once the shield breaks).
- Honestly, I feel for Bao Laosan, being manipulated by Zhu Jiu - he seems to truly believe that the SID is all that stands in the way of Dixingren living freely on the surface, and destroying it will solve all their problems. And being faced with Zhao Xinci again has to be so hard for him.
Discussion starters:
- What's your favourite scene or moment from this episode? Your favourite random Dixing fact?
- Why do you think Zhao Yunlan didn't inform his superiors about the Hallows, and instead seems to have kept them out of the paperwork? What was his thinking back in episode 2? How many contortions did he have to go through to make the omission non-obvious? *g*
- What if Lin Jing hadn't assumed the black energy detector was broken, and instead thought "Zhao Xinci" was an impostor? Ha, now I want this canon divergence! (What if Xiao-Guo actually told the others he saw Zhao Xinci with yellow eyes? If he did, those two bits of info together would be a very clear clue!)
- When Zhao Xinci came to the SID, what was his original plan? Since he asks about Shen Wei and that seems to be a point of contention, is that the reason he's conducting this inspection now? What would he have done if Shen Wei himself was there, as he seemed to expect (checking Shen Wei's schedule and choosing a time when Shen Wei had no commitments at the university)?
He couldn't have known Zhao Yunlan would go to Dixing and avoid him entirely, and the loyalty test as it happened wouldn't have worked if he'd been there - or would Zhao Xinci have removed Zhao Yunlan from the office on some pretext so he could work on the team?
(And what does he think when he learns Zhao Yunlan has gone to Dixing? He doesn't say much about it when Da Qing explains ...) - Do you think Shen Wei sometimes regrets not spending more time in Dixing? What do you think went into weighing his priorities?
- Both with An Bai and friends at the pillar, and when Zhao Yunlan is exposed at the bar, people seem pretty quick to jump to the conclusion that he's not Dixingren. Does that mean there are actually humans occasionally visiting Dixing? Or is there an urban legend about humans secretly infiltrating Dixing, or what? Thoughts?
- I'm still entirely unclear on why the Regent wanted Zhao Yunlan to come to Dixing. Ye Zun is clearly trying to get his hooks into him, but the Regent isn't on Ye Zun's side and wouldn't help Ye Zun in such a way when there isn't anything in it for him. And what was that entire ploy with the fake attack about? Did the Regent want to create some kind of diplomatic incident to get the upper hand negotiating with Haixing?
- At the end, yellow-eyed Zhao Xinci (aka Zhang Shi) suddenly appears at the door, and tells Xiao-Guo he's his hand-picked weapon, foreshadowing his plan to substitute Xiao-Guo as the Guardian Lantern's sacrifice. But how does he move from his seat at the desk to the door so quickly?! Any theories?
- The Regent: "I sure am getting old. It's a good time to slack-off a little. I'll leave the hard work to the young people." - What work do you think he's referring to? He doesn't seem to have any interest in actually making Zhao Yunlan look for the Dijun Register ...
Let's talk about episode 16!
Come and talk about this episode - anything from favourite scenes or lines of dialogue to notes/questions about continuity or translation, most gorgeous (or angsty) smile, or anything else that strikes your fancy! And share links to your own and/or others' episode-related meta, picspams, and fanworks, new or old!
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the SID (by which I mean Zhao Yunlan) seems to have deliberately kept info about the Hallows from their own superiors, starting as far back as episode 2. Otherwise, surely the commissioner would be assumed to know about the most important/powerful items at the SID! Fascinating.
Yes! I wonder if ZYL's kept their growing relationship with the Envoy a secret too -- or the Envoy's return entirely? He definitely wouldn't want to deal with his father's reaction.
One thing I find a bit annoying: Zhao Xinci treats the SID team as if they're entirely useless without Zhao Yunlan - and they essentially live down to this. Everyone seems paralysed and acts as if they don't know how to conduct an investigation, as if they've never had to search for clues before.
I thought this was because usually they're looking for clues towards something -- they have Zhao Yunlan's hypothesis drawing them on. This casting a wide net and hoping to catch something isn't their usual style, and it makes them a bit aimless.
which leads to him being separated from Shen Wei for the rest of the episode. I assume that was intentional.
Intentional by whom? I always assume that's the Deacon's doing, probably on Ye Zun's behalf... though it also plays into the An Bai trap, so. The competing agendas here make it so confusing!
The problem, for Shen Wei, is that he could act much more efficiently against all of that if he spent more time in Dixing - but that would mean abandoning his duties on the surface, not to mention the Hallows and Zhu Jiu. (And his personal life, of course.)
Yeah, he has so much keeping him in Haixing. The current threats, but also his personal life, the university, the SID, and all the ways those intersect. I wonder how much it bothers him that his reputation faces opposition in Dixing. In some ways, it's the price of being a public figure. In other ways, it must really hurt to be misunderstood by his people. And I always wonder whether and how much he considers the fairness of some of the criticisms...
(Of course the Dijun Register is a very useful tool for him, so surely he wouldn't want it actually gone ... But perhaps he thinks Ding Dun is still working for him, so he'll still have access to the book even while it officially is "lost"?)
Yeah, he might just not want it handed over to the Envoy. My theory is that after receiving a) Zhao Yunlan's smoke messenger inquiry about Shen Wei, which he replied to with useful info, and b) the Envoy's smoke messenger impatient demand for the Register, the Regent decides to form an alliance with Zhao Yunlan against the Envoy, with the aim of putting Shen Wei on the back foot in Haixing as well as Dixing, gaining some leverage, and putting a stop to the endless, tiresome proposals for schools, etc. ;-p After all, if ZYL were on good terms with the Envoy, surely he would have applied there for info. So I think the Regent sees an opening.
If the Regent had brought Zhao Yunlan to Dixing alone, as originally intended, maybe the An Bai & co trap would have cemented the alliance: ZYL gets into hot water with them, and the Regent rescues him, putting ZYL in his debt. In that case, Zhao Yunlan finding the register would further their relationship, like a series of quid pro quos. (In this scenario, it doesn't actually matter much whether Ding Dun stole the book independently, for Ye Zun, or on the Regent's behalf giving the Regent plausible deniability when the Envoy comes looking for it and creating a "quest" for the chief of the SID. But what I don't understand is what An Bai & co get out of it, and why they don't complain about it later on when they're facing execution.)
Anyway, Shen Wei came too, so everything got muddied, and he'd intercepted the Regent's earlier letter, and Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan seem close, and then Zhao Yunlan turned out to be sharper than the Regent expected, so he puts on his "I'm a befuddled old man" act and vamooses, leaving Zhao Yunlan to fend for himself.
Meanwhile, the Deacon is secretly one of Ye Zun's agents, right? And trying to engineer Zhao Yunlan's being left alone to wander into Ye Zun's snares?
(Unclear to me: how much of this Shen Wei guesses/figures out at any point.)
The loss of cat language is recent (he still spoke it ten years ago, when he was working with Zhao Xinci), but not that recent.
Da Qing's timeline and multiple amnesias are SO CONFUSING! I'd suggest it was "use it or lose it" language loss, but it seems like he was using it.
Zhao Yunlan: "I'm a kind man who doesn't need to be repaid!" - That's not what you said to Shen Wei, LOL. :D
LOLOL! :D :D :D
Given that Zhao Xinci is definitely the one who right-handedly aims his gun at Guo Changcheng in episode 36, the entire left-handed scene must be Zhang Shi.
Yes, I was just about to respond to your para above with, "Wait, wasn't that Zhang Shi?" Presumably the one he loves is Zhao Yunlan (in a fatherly way), and not Zhao Xinci? *g*
Wu Xiaojun was sentenced, though - the Envoy didn't let him off entirely (but promised to work on shortening his sentence).
He might not have been able to let him off. When the Shadow Man helps out at the Sky Pillar, he says the Envoy petitioned for him to get a lighter sentence (or something like that?), so I don't think the Envoy does the sentencing.
And later at the palace, Zhao Yunlan is shocked to discover that Wu Tian'en isn't just feeling nostalgia, but also disgust at the place.
Oh, great catch. I didn't take much notice of that.
But at the same time, how much is Zhao Xinci enjoying getting to let out all his frustrations about his son, criticising him left and right, while he can justify it as motivating his team rather than undermining the SID's work?
LOL! For some reason, this reminds me of Shen Wei writing the self-criticism on Zhao Yunlan's behalf. People who love ZYL do need a way to vent!
And he's also letting his bigotry show when he tells Guo Changcheng: "Da Qing has worked at the SID the longest. The others either possess a risky identity or don't have potential for greatness. Only you have a clean background." I do think those are his true feelings coming out, with the "risky identity". Ugh. Fascinating that Da Qing seems to be in a separate category for him to some degree, though.
I think they're his true feelings and also, probably, official Haixing policy (which he helps set, so yeah). Like, I don't think there's a hope in hell of the DoS/Xingdu Bureau letting Chu Shuzhi run the SID, you know? They'd see it as a conflict of interest, at the very least. And it's not like any of the SID would have sat the civil service exam or been trained in Haixing bureaucracy, etc. which I'd expect to be a requirement for such a responsible role, you know?
Btw, regarding the loyalty question - on the one hand, good on Xiao-Guo for speaking up even against Lao-Chu! But on the other hand, Lao-Chu has every right to feel offended by Xiao-Guo thinking so badly of him.
Well, a) this is just after ZYL interrupted CSZ's assault of the Regent and took the Regent's side, and b) every time Changcheng says admiring things about ZYL, CSZ rebukes him for it. So... *g*
Honestly, I feel for Bao Laosan, being manipulated by Zhu Jiu - he seems to truly believe that the SID is all that stands in the way of Dixingren living freely on the surface, and destroying it will solve all their problems.
It's so naive! It's like, "If I destroy the police station, they'll stop enforcing the laws, right? We can live happily ever after?" *facepalm*
What's your favourite scene or moment from this episode?
Zhao Yunlan talking about masquerades being a trend in Haixing just before they cut to Zhang Shi in the library. <3 <3 <3
Your favourite random Dixing fact?
The Dijun has a schedule which includes the Envoy's visits. The hints of governmental workings and bureaucracy are fascinating.
Why do you think Zhao Yunlan didn't inform his superiors about the Hallows, and instead seems to have kept them out of the paperwork? What was his thinking back in episode 2?
I think it's probably partly "the less anyone knows, the better/safer" and "we don't want the DoS lab to come after them" (which is probably also Lin Jing's motivation for covering /divided loyalties) and "we may want to use them in ways the DoS wouldn't approve of, so the less oversight, the more convenient for us." Imagine if ZYL had to fill out a Hallows Incident form every time he touched one! *g*
What if Lin Jing hadn't assumed the black energy detector was broken, and instead thought "Zhao Xinci" was an impostor? Ha, now I want this canon divergence!
Or if he mentioned the detector's "fault" to Zhao Yunlan?!
When Zhao Xinci came to the SID, what was his original plan? Since he asks about Shen Wei and that seems to be a point of contention, is that the reason he's conducting this inspection now? What would he have done if Shen Wei himself was there, as he seemed to expect (checking Shen Wei's schedule and choosing a time when Shen Wei had no commitments at the university)?
Yes, I think that's exactly his reason for being there. He wants to gauge the relationship of Shen Wei with Zhao Yunlan and the SID, and make sure Shen Wei doesn't have his own agenda that contradicts the SID's or weakens Zhao Yunlan's position. (As you know, I think it's arguable whether he already knows Shen Wei is the Envoy, but he definitely knows he's Dixingren.) It would have been SO FASCINATING to see Shen Wei and Zhao Xinci face off against each other at this stage, and now I'm so sad we didn't get that. ;-p
Oh, ha, I just realised that the Regent's relationship with Shen Wei is kind of an analogue for Zhao Xinci's relationship with Zhao Yunlan. And, too, that a lot of this episode is polling Zhao Yunlan's and Shen Wei's popularity as leaders among their respective colleagues/subordinates. (Which makes me wonder if the Regent enlisted An Bai & co precisely because of their anti-Envoy views...)
And what does he think when he learns Zhao Yunlan has gone to Dixing? He doesn't say much about it when Da Qing explains ...
He probably knows even less about Dixing than ZYL did.
Do you think Shen Wei sometimes regrets not spending more time in Dixing? What do you think went into weighing his priorities?
Yes. I think he feels very strongly about it as a place, but his work (both kinds) and all his friends are in Haixing, and he finds his inability to make meaningful change in Dixing (and having to deal with the Regent generally) super frustrating, I think.
Or is there an urban legend about humans secretly infiltrating Dixing, or what?
Hee! I have no idea what's up with that, but I love that explanation. :D
The Regent: "I sure am getting old. It's a good time to slack-off a little. I'll leave the hard work to the young people." - What work do you think he's referring to? He doesn't seem to have any interest in actually making Zhao Yunlan look for the Dijun Register ...
I think he does want the book back -- he just doesn't particularly want to have to hand it over to the Envoy.
(My own notes to follow. I wonder if this will fit in a single comment...)
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Ooh, that's a really good theory! I was struggling to make sense of the Regent's behaviour for this entire episode!
Also good point about the Regent possibly thinking Zhao Yunlan started it. If that is the case, he's in for an unpleasant revelation about Zhao Yunlan's loyalties XD
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Yes! Thank youi so much for pointing all these out. So good! :D
I wonder if the Regent actually thought Zhao Yunlan's inquiry about "Shen Wei" was him reaching out to form an alliance. He might think ZYL started it?
Yeah, I could totally see that!
The Regent claiming to be forgetful and useless, and Zhao Yunlan openly and loudly yawning. Was that a reflexive yawn because of the dark, or was he going, "Stop with your excuses, old man"?
I was wondering about the yawn too. It seemed so emphatic, but I couldn't figure out whether or not it was deliberate, or if so, what Zhao Yunlan meant by it.
Duing Bao Laosan's flashback explanation, he brings down trees and lets in light (is that thematic?).
Oh, good catch! Yeah, I think it must be. This show!
I think Zhao Yunlan is pretty sure the Regent set up the trap: he walks off alone, the Regent follows, flattering him. Zhao Yunlan is rude and confirms his alliance with the Envoy. The Regent abandons him.
I'm not so sure about him recognising the Regent's involvement. If he'd recognised the Regent led him into a trap, I'd expect him to look at the Regent differently (and try to figure out his agenda), rather than mainly seeming annoyed with his flattery and ineffectualness. But he just irritably tells him to focus on finding the Dijun Register, then practically rolls his eyes at the Regent pretending not to remember.
(Does the Regent ever face consequences for leaving ZYL alone on the streets of Dixing?)
Who could make him face consequences? There isn't anyone.
The wife is devastated and worried about survival, and Changcheng coming from his place of privilege is trying to bolster her spirits rather than address/sympathise with her material needs and concerns. How much of CSZ's discomfort is coming from this mismatch, I wonder.
Yeah, I was wondering the same. Xiao-Guo really doesn't know how to talk to her or take her concerns seriously.
Ye Zun definitely strikes a cord, but how does he know? Is it a cold reading based on ZYL's flippancy? Can he actually see inside him (eww!)?
I don't think he can read his mind or anything, but I could see him having some kind of ability that lets him home in on someone's weak spot. Or it's just long experience.
And then Ye Zun says, "The only thing I can teach you is--" and gets interrupted. WHAT? Probably "--what a terrible traitor Hei Pao Shi is", right?
LOL! Probably! :p
I really want to know what he was going to say, given that he probably wouldn't have phrased it that directly. *g*
And telling the bartender that Dixing needs to keep up with Haixing trends always makes me go: really, dude? Haixing may be literally above Dixing, but it isn't necessarily there metaphorically/culturally.
Seriously1 This isn't the only time Zhao Yunlan says something like this, and it always makes me twitch.
Does he want ZYL to figure out about Kunlun in advance? Is he trying to break the timeline??
Yeah, I almost put that in the post as well, but then decided I wanted to rewatch the rest of the scenes about this book first before I tried to theorise again. Maybe we can figure out Zhang Shi's agenda better this time round!
I wonder if ZXC and Zhang Shi are playing different games. Maybe ZXC genuinely wants to depose ZYL (and get him to a safer desk job?), whereas Zhang Shi is testing the team and especially Changcheng?
I honestly can't see it. This "if only one of you agrees" set-up seems entirely designed to make them pull together as a team; it would be a stunningly stupid approach if he actually meant it.
Chu Shuzhi sitting in the lab thinking strategically about Zhu Jiu and the case. *flails*
Right? My notes have "Lao-Chu is the only one who has his priorities straight". *g*
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Deliberately ambiguous, maybe?
I'm not so sure about him recognising the Regent's involvement. If he'd recognised the Regent led him into a trap, I'd expect him to look at the Regent differently
It was the look and nod after the Regent says, "You're just going to leave it like this?" that made me think he figured it out. Idk. Maybe he thinks it's all petty unimportant game-playing, not enough to re-evaluate things? I'm not wedded to this interpretation, though.
Who could make him face consequences? There isn't anyone.
The Dijun, technically, but yeah. Haixing, if they have any kind of trade going on, but I don't think we're supposed to think they do, and also that would mean Zhao Yunlan officially admitting he got himself in hot water.
but I could see him having some kind of ability that lets him home in on someone's weak spot. Or it's just long experience.
*nodnod* Maybe some combo of those two?
I really want to know what he was going to say, given that he probably wouldn't have phrased it that directly. *g*
Right? There are too many interruptions in these episodes! ;-p
Maybe we can figure out Zhang Shi's agenda better this time round!
*fingers crossed* It's definitely helping watching everything right through and in order. I haven't done this in so long!
This "if only one of you agrees" set-up seems entirely designed to make them pull together as a team; it would be a stunningly stupid approach if he actually meant it.
*nodnod* And Zhao Xinci does have form with that "saying the opposite of what you mean to gain an advantage" strategy, like when he criticises ZYL during the kidnapping. But given that, I feel like they should have figured it out! (ZYL would have seen through it in a second, right?) It's the fact they take it so seriously that makes me question.
Right? My notes have "Lao-Chu is the only one who has his priorities straight". *g*
LOL! :D
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Yeah, agreed! It makes such a difference - the watching in order, and the discussion afterwards, so we can unravel things together and work out the bits we missed.
*nodnod* And Zhao Xinci does have form with that "saying the opposite of what you mean to gain an advantage" strategy, like when he criticises ZYL during the kidnapping.
Oooh, yes, the comparison hadn't occurred to me, but this is an excellent point1
I think Zhao Yunlan would definitely have caught on, yeah - the rest of them don't because they're inexperienced and don't know him well, except for Da Qing, and he may well catch on in the end, even if not right away. (Going to look at Da Qing very closely next episode! He does see that Zhao Xinci isn't what he presents himself as, with regard to Bao Laosan's death, so that would fit ...)
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Yes, absolutely! I'm loving it so much! :D (And then, afterwards, we can all get our Diplomas in Guardian Studies. :D)
Going to look at Da Qing very closely next episode! He does see that Zhao Xinci isn't what he presents himself as, with regard to Bao Laosan's death, so that would fit ...
Yes, you're right. As you said above, their dynamic is so fascinating!
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Oooh, that's a good thought about the Envoy! Though after the rooftop, would Zhao Yunlan have thought to keep that out of the reports? Later, the changing relationship, definitely - you bet Wu Tian'en's healing didn't make it into any sort of official report - but I don't think Zhao Yunlan had enough reason to keep the Envoy's appearance out entirely.
I thought this was because usually they're looking for clues towards something -- they have Zhao Yunlan's hypothesis drawing them on. This casting a wide net and hoping to catch something isn't their usual style, and it makes them a bit aimless.
Maybe? We've seen Lin Jing taking samples and measuring things before; that doesn't require a hypothesis, does it? He didn't do anything at the first crime scene at all. Totally agreed that Zhao Xinci's method isn't their usual style though.
Intentional by whom? I always assume that's the Deacon's doing, probably on Ye Zun's behalf... though it also plays into the An Bai trap, so. The competing agendas here make it so confusing!
I think the Regent and Ye Zun independently instigated the same thing, with different motives, and the Deacon (who is actually working for Ye Zun) lets the Regent think he's doing it for him. (Hence the winking and all - the Regent thinks the Deacon is on his side.)
In some ways, it's the price of being a public figure. In other ways, it must really hurt to be misunderstood by his people. And I always wonder whether and how much he considers the fairness of some of the criticisms...
Yeah, all very good questions! I do think he knows some of the criticism is fair, and that hurts even more because he doesn't know a better way of doing things.
My theory is that after receiving a) Zhao Yunlan's smoke messenger inquiry about Shen Wei, which he replied to with useful info, and b) the Envoy's smoke messenger impatient demand for the Register, the Regent decides to form an alliance with Zhao Yunlan against the Envoy, with the aim of putting Shen Wei on the back foot in Haixing as well as Dixing, gaining some leverage, and putting a stop to the endless, tiresome proposals for schools, etc. ;-p After all, if ZYL were on good terms with the Envoy, surely he would have applied there for info. So I think the Regent sees an opening.
OH! Excellent thinking, now it's starting to come together!
If the Regent had brought Zhao Yunlan to Dixing alone, as originally intended, maybe the An Bai & co trap would have cemented the alliance: ZYL gets into hot water with them, and the Regent rescues him, putting ZYL in his debt. In that case, Zhao Yunlan finding the register would further their relationship, like a series of quid pro quos. (In this scenario, it doesn't actually matter much whether Ding Dun stole the book independently, for Ye Zun, or on the Regent's behalf giving the Regent plausible deniability when the Envoy comes looking for it and creating a "quest" for the chief of the SID.
All of this makes perfect sense, thank you so much for working it out!
The Regent antagonising Chu Shuzhi also fits into this; forcing Zhao Yunlan to defend him puts them on the same side, and separates him from the Envoy's agent.
But what I don't understand is what An Bai & co get out of it, and why they don't complain about it later on when they're facing execution.)
I always thought they just didn't have much choice about it - when the Regent demands something, what can you do? But they never do complain about it even when they have nothing left to lose, that's true.
Anyway, Shen Wei came too, so everything got muddied, and he'd intercepted the Regent's earlier letter, and Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan seem close, and then Zhao Yunlan turned out to be sharper than the Regent expected, so he puts on his "I'm a befuddled old man" act and vamooses, leaving Zhao Yunlan to fend for himself.
I don't think he can know how close Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan are, and he did also witness Shen Wei snapping at Zhao Yunlan not to interfere, so maybe the Regent thinks he can drive a wedge between them if he can make Zhao Yunlan see him as a better ally? So he proceeds as planned, only then Zhao Yunlan proves sharper than expected ...
(Unclear to me: how much of this Shen Wei guesses/figures out at any point.)
Very unclear, because Zhao Yunlan doesn't seem to tell him about meeting Ye Zun or about An Bai et al. But he has to know the Regent is up to something, and the Deacon's obstructionism is very obivous, and Ye Zun can be assumed to be up to something at all times ...
Presumably the one he loves is Zhao Yunlan (in a fatherly way), and not Zhao Xinci? *g*
From context, it has to be a SID member, so, yeah.
He might not have been able to let him off. When the Shadow Man helps out at the Sky Pillar, he says the Envoy petitioned for him to get a lighter sentence (or something like that?), so I don't think the Envoy does the sentencing.
Yeah, agreed, he doesn't do the sentencing! But delivering someone to Dixing doesn't necessarily mean delivering them to the judicial system, given Wu Tian'en (who was illegally in Haixing, at least) is allowed to walk free.
LOL! For some reason, this reminds me of Shen Wei writing the self-criticism on Zhao Yunlan's behalf. People who love ZYL do need a way to vent!
LOLOLOL!
I think they're his true feelings and also, probably, official Haixing policy (which he helps set, so yeah). Like, I don't think there's a hope in hell of the DoS/Xingdu Bureau letting Chu Shuzhi run the SID, you know?
100% agreed. I'm always surprised they even let Da Qing be deputy chief, but presumably they consider every other option even worse. And Zhao Xinci at least seems to think Da Qing is reasonably competent.
Well, a) this is just after ZYL interrupted CSZ's assault of the Regent and took the Regent's side, and b) every time Changcheng says admiring things about ZYL, CSZ rebukes him for it. So... *g*
So, Lao-Chu has every right to be offended that Xiao-Guo, despite apparently liking him, understands him so little. Seriously, that has to hurt.
It's so naive! It's like, "If I destroy the police station, they'll stop enforcing the laws, right? We can live happily ever after?" *facepalm*
Yeah, he's not the brightest bulb ... prime material for Zhu Jiu's manipulations. :(
The Dijun has a schedule which includes the Envoy's visits. The hints of governmental workings and bureaucracy are fascinating.
Oooh, good catch! Yeah, that's fascinating.
I think it's probably partly "the less anyone knows, the better/safer" and "we don't want the DoS lab to come after them" (which is probably also Lin Jing's motivation for covering /divided loyalties) and "we may want to use them in ways the DoS wouldn't approve of, so the less oversight, the more convenient for us." Imagine if ZYL had to fill out a Hallows Incident form every time he touched one! *g*
Maybe also "they'll take them away if they know, and then they'll be LESS secure since the Ministry doesn't have a black energy shield"? And hopefully also "the Envoy told US to keep them safe; we can't hand them over to someone else behind his back"!
Or if he mentioned the detector's "fault" to Zhao Yunlan?!
Oooh yes! And then Xiao-Guo could mention the yellow eyes, and ... :D
Yes, I think that's exactly his reason for being there. He wants to gauge the relationship of Shen Wei with Zhao Yunlan and the SID, and make sure Shen Wei doesn't have his own agenda that contradicts the SID's or weakens Zhao Yunlan's position. (As you know, I think it's arguable whether he already knows Shen Wei is the Envoy, but he definitely knows he's Dixingren.) It would have been SO FASCINATING to see Shen Wei and Zhao Xinci face off against each other at this stage, and now I'm so sad we didn't get that. ;-p
Yes, agreed, all of that makes sense from his POV! And damn, I want that face-off so badly now. :D
Oh, ha, I just realised that the Regent's relationship with Shen Wei is kind of an analogue for Zhao Xinci's relationship with Zhao Yunlan. And, too, that a lot of this episode is polling Zhao Yunlan's and Shen Wei's popularity as leaders among their respective colleagues/subordinates. (Which makes me wonder if the Regent enlisted An Bai & co precisely because of their anti-Envoy views...)
Oooh, great catch, excellent parallels!
Yes. I think he feels very strongly about it as a place, but his work (both kinds) and all his friends are in Haixing, and he finds his inability to make meaningful change in Dixing (and having to deal with the Regent generally) super frustrating, I think.
Yeah, agreed. Though he might be able to make more meaningful change if he spent more time there and put his effort into that. But he'd have to neglect other work to do that ... This man has way too many jobs!
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Unless he thought that mentioning the Envoy would draw his father's attention. ;-p
There's also the question of whether anyone reads the reports very closely. If he left it out of the summary and just mentioned it in the detail, it might have slipped under the radar for a while? Though I guess the fact that the cases get more and more serious is going to get people scrutinising things a bit more closely, so maybe not.
We've seen Lin Jing taking samples and measuring things before; that doesn't require a hypothesis, does it?
I think it requires some kind of theory -- otherwise how would he know what tests to run and what to look for? But yeah, Lin Jing is probably the person who handles this transition of investigation styles the best: he writes his soil composition report, after all, even if he doesn't get the point.
I think the Regent and Ye Zun independently instigated the same thing, with different motives, and the Deacon (who is actually working for Ye Zun) lets the Regent think he's doing it for him. (Hence the winking and all - the Regent thinks the Deacon is on his side.)
Yes, agreed! That's how I see it, too.
All of this makes perfect sense, thank you so much for working it out!
Yay, I'm glad it works. And good point about antagonising Lao Chu!
I don't think he can know how close Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan are, and he did also witness Shen Wei snapping at Zhao Yunlan not to interfere, so maybe the Regent thinks he can drive a wedge between them if he can make Zhao Yunlan see him as a better ally?
Ahhhh, is this also why Shen Wei introduces Zhao Yunlan as his friend at the palace, and not as Chief of the SID or Lord of the Guardians, I wonder? (Though we don't get a reaction shot of the Regent to that, so maybe not.)
And then Zhao Yunlan tells the Regent, "Hei Pao Shi was right about you." Ouch. ;-p
But he has to know the Regent is up to something, and the Deacon's obstructionism is very obivous, and Ye Zun can be assumed to be up to something at all times ...
Ha, yeah, not exactly a hospitable political environment! In fact, this episode is also about the limits of power/jurisdiction, isn't it? The Deacon standing up to the Envoy; Zhao Yunlan being reprimanded in absentia for stepping outside his job description. Hmm... (One of the things I'm starting to enjoy about this rewatch is seeing the episodes as discrete episodes. The way they cut off so abruptly, and often continue on directly, makes it easy for me to forget that the specific-episode storylines are crafted with themes in mind.)
From context, it has to be a SID member, so, yeah.
Unless "here" means Haixing, or "here" means "here at this exact moment in time"... But I do think it's ZYL. The only way Zhang Shi can possibly justify offering GCC up as an alternative sacrifice, and risking the integrity of the timeline in the process, is if he loves ZYL specifically and immensely. (Oh, unless he's doing that for ZXC's sake. Ha.)
But delivering someone to Dixing doesn't necessarily mean delivering them to the judicial system, given Wu Tian'en (who was illegally in Haixing, at least) is allowed to walk free.
Yeah, good point. I was wondering if Wu Tian'en's sentence might have been commuted into serving the Envoy, but I think that arrangement is on the down-low, isn't it?
So, Lao-Chu has every right to be offended that Xiao-Guo, despite apparently liking him, understands him so little. Seriously, that has to hurt.
Eh, I think Lao Chu probably just thinks Xiao Guo is being a too-literal dumbass, which is... not inaccurate. *g* Xiao Guo knows and understands a lot about Lao Chu, but everyone has blindspots.
Maybe also "they'll take them away if they know, and then they'll be LESS secure since the Ministry doesn't have a black energy shield"?
Yeah, absolutely!
And hopefully also "the Envoy told US to keep them safe; we can't hand them over to someone else behind his back"!
I mean, I'd like to think the SID (as an organisation)'s loyalty to Haixing is greater than their loyalty to the Envoy. Or at least... I think it should be, especially at this stage where it's not yet clear the threat is existential? Of course, everything's jumbled up because the SID is ZYL, the boundaries there are utterly blurry (as we've discussed before), and ZYL's loyalties are 100% compromised by now. He doesn't care about Haixing bureaucracy or official policy or the limits of his role: he just wants to work with Shen Wei to maintain the peace, and the fact that he's the Lord of the Guardians and Shen Wei is the Envoy seems to give him license to do whatever he thinks fit. But if it turned out that the Envoy didn't have Haixing's well-being at heart, as well as Dixing's, it would be a recipe for total disaster. So... I guess my thoughts and feelings about this are a bit tangled up. Sorry if this doesn't make sense!
(Wait, I just thought, was Zhao Xinci the Lord of the Guardians, back in the day? /o\ /o\ /o\)
Though he might be able to make more meaningful change if he spent more time there and put his effort into that.
Maybe, or maybe he would have had less power. In the same way the Regent was subordinate to the Envoy in Haixing, I feel like for all the Regent's bowing and scraping, the Envoy is technically subordinate to the Regent in Dixing? It's not his area? That's my take, anyway. So maybe making recommendations from a position of strength, while ably doing his job as treaty enforcer, is the best he can do.
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Oh, but good point about Shen Wei's motivations! That makes sense to me.
In fact, this episode is also about the limits of power/jurisdiction, isn't it? The Deacon standing up to the Envoy; Zhao Yunlan being reprimanded in absentia for stepping outside his job description. Hmm...
Excellent observation, yes! And totally agreed on the thematic coherence of individual episodes, it's easy to overlook that when the plots run into each other so much!
I was wondering if Wu Tian'en's sentence might have been commuted into serving the Envoy, but I think that arrangement is on the down-low, isn't it?
Hmmm. Could go either way - I think either interpretation works.
I mean, I'd like to think the SID (as an organisation)'s loyalty to Haixing is greater than their loyalty to the Envoy.
Yes, but the Hallows theoretically belong to Dixing, don't they? So taking them behind the Envoy's back, when the Envoy has entrusted them to the SID, would risk a diplomatic incident at the least, conflict with Dixing at the worst. And Zhao Yunlan might owe loyalty to his superiors, his loyalty to Haixing as a whole should override obedience to his superiors, shouldn't it? So if he doesn't trust them not to do something very ill-advised ...
I know, we're in full "actually, we're acting as vigilantes, procedure what procedure" territory here ... luckily Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei both are good people who can be trusted with that kind of power, but still! And yet, with Dixing government being what it is and Haixing being bigoted, they're doing the best they can.
Wait, I just thought, was Zhao Xinci the Lord of the Guardians, back in the day? /o\ /o\ /o\
Why /o\? It's just a title for the SID chief.
So maybe making recommendations from a position of strength, while ably doing his job as treaty enforcer, is the best he can do.
Yeah, it's possible. I was just thinking that he might have more immediate supporters in Dixing if he was present more.
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In as much as they belong to anyway, yeah, you're right.
So taking them behind the Envoy's back, when the Envoy has entrusted them to the SID, would risk a diplomatic incident at the least, conflict with Dixing at the worst.
But surely if that's the case, then there's no harm in telling the higher ups about it? They don't want conflict with Dixing either.
And Zhao Yunlan might owe loyalty to his superiors, his loyalty to Haixing as a whole should override obedience to his superiors, shouldn't it? So if he doesn't trust them not to do something very ill-advised ...
Agreed. I just think it's too early for Zhao Yunlan to mistrust his superiors to any large extent. His view of Dixingren was aligned with theirs, pretty much, until very recently, and Minister Gao welcomed Shen Wei with open arms, knowing he has powers. So I feel like Zhao Yunlan should still think they're persuadable (like he was).
luckily Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei both are good people who can be trusted with that kind of power, but still! And yet, with Dixing government being what it is and Haixing being bigoted, they're doing the best they can.
I agree! And I love them and their principled choices and compassion and willingness to put themselves on the line! It's just every so often I stumble over the vigilantism. Whether rather than going outside the system, they should be doing more to change it. And how much they're part of it on paper versus how they act. You know? (I know, patiently and determinedly working to change a system doesn't making for particularly good tv. *g*)
Why /o\? It's just a title for the SID chief.
Idk, it's a title that seems to hold a lot of weight for Dixing, if not in Haixing. It feels wrong for ZXC to wield it.
I was just thinking that he might have more immediate supporters in Dixing if he was present more.
True. I'm not sure where that would lead, though. Best case, it would put more pressure on the current administration; worst case...
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And yet as far back as episode 2 he decided he didn't trust his superiors, and kept the Hallows from them. So clearly he didn't think their views were that aligned, after all ... Possibly it's because he doesn't trust his father specifically, and thinks he's representative of the Xingdu Bureau's views if not the Ministry's.
I know, patiently and determinedly working to change a system doesn't making for particularly good tv. *g*
Yeah, and while I want them to change the system, there's only so much two people can do while also trying to handle all the immediate crises that are thrown at them. *g*
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Or he kept meaning to and never quite got around to it? *g* (Are case reports canon or logically extrapolated fanon?)
Maybe he just wanted to keep control of them, to build up his relationship with the Envoy, and he didn't trust the DoS not to give them to the lab. That's not the same as being at odds with the DoS' underlying principles.
I also think the SID has an insularity to it, a "no one else understands us" and "we operate in the shadows" attitude, and that plus their classified status leads to a natural secretiveness.
But not trusting his father would be reason enough, especially with the political reach ZXC has (and probably had even before he got promoted).
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Maybe he just wanted to keep control of them, to build up his relationship with the Envoy, and he didn't trust the DoS not to give them to the lab. That's not the same as being at odds with the DoS' underlying principles.
Tbh I'm not seeing the difference ...
Agreed that Zhao Xinci is reason enough on his own. *g*
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If everyone thought the bureaucracy should work exactly the way they wanted it to and acted accordingly, surely the whole thing would fall apart? So I think there's a difference between thinking the bureaucracy has different methods or ends to your own preferred ones, and thinking it's fundamentally bad/wrong/evil. Like, what if the DoS lab were working on something that really would improve everyone's lives? ZYL doesn't know it isn't. Maybe the Hallows could save lives or solve climate change! ;-p
I don't think blind loyalty is called for, but (unless you're factoring ZXC in) starting from a place of mistrust doesn't seem very constructive either.
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And I agree that starting from a position of mistrust isn't great! Arguably he shouldn't have kept things from them! How can they make good decisions if they can't rely on the info they're getting from their own people?! But Zhao Yunlan did make that choice to keep that secret, justified or not.
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I think if it were just himself keeping the secret, he could have just... let it slide. Played down the importance of Li Qian's necklace, and kept it secret as an unspoken favour to the Envoy, as part of his job of earning the Envoy's trust to build a good working relationship.
But yeah, once he's implicated the rest of the SID, it becomes a SID position, and that needs a more reasoned motivation/justification... idk. I wonder what Da Qing thinks.
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