I am delighted to have enabled this wonderful comment!
Phew! I was afraid I might have been too wall-of-text-y. *g*
Zhang Shi appears while Shen Xi is still alive: when little!Zhao Yunlan calls his dad during the ZXC/ZS introductory conversation in the mirror, ZXC says “I’ll be home later, you and your mom eat dinner first.”
Ah, thank you! (I screencapped that scene for my icons; I really should've remembered.) So yeah, for some unspecified length of time, Shen Xi was married to ZXC while Zhang Shi was ~present~ (for some value of present). I wonder if she knew... *squinches eyes at potential dubcon aspects*
All of your reasoning on why ZXC didn’t know until now that Shen Wei was the Envoy makes sense; for some reason I’m just really stuck on the idea that he knew from early on, I don’t know why.
Maybe because they never show us finding out? It's like, that could have been a significant plot beat, and the fact that it was omitted implies it wasn't needed because he already knew. (I had been assuming too, until I wrote that fic.)
Oh, but at least ZXC did get a goodbye hug. And the fact that ZYL gave it suggests he knew the other one was with Zhang Shi, right? *has not watched those scenes in a while* So that actually makes me feel better. Thanks!
I mean, the whole "Wick Substitution 101" contingency plan sucks, obviously, but I can see why ZYL might not have been capable of having that conversation with his dad at that time, under such pressure. I just really wanted them to get a reconciliation beat, and they did.
Zhao Yunlan has always been afraid at some level that what his father is saying is true, and so when he hears it in so many words it’s hard not to believe it, even though he knows it’s a gambit on ZXC’s part.
Yes, I think that's exactly why it's so powerful. And to some degree, you know, there probably are a few tiny grains of truth buried in there -- that's why those are the things that come out of ZXC's when he reaches for verbal weapons. Maybe they're waiting to be said, and that's one of the reasons they hit home so hard. But they're not The Truth, and ZYL totally can't hear that.
I would say “all of the above”—another way in which I feel ZXC, ZS, and ZYL were so caught up in a framework that made each of them end up hurting the others so much.
So do you think there was any good that came out of their connections? Like, I feel like Zhang Shi might have prompted ZXC occasionally to at least try to step outside his rigidity and be supportive or kind to young!ZYL, and Zhang Shi loves ZYL (we know that from the library scene in ep 16, when he's talking to Sang Zan), and ZXC isn't left entirely alone after Shen Xi dies... There has to be some good there, right? For all of them? The real pain comes from the secrets.
And, whoa, okay, now I'm thinking that to an outsider (to ZYL in some lights, perhaps?) Zhang Shi and ZXC are an analogue of the Envoy and Shen Wei -- the hidden Dixing alter ego (that had to be forced to reveal itself) -- though obviously it's not at all the same for Shen Wei (he is both identities, and the hiddeness is very different, too). Only the Zhang Shi revelation is so much worse because it was right there in ZYL's own family, right under his nose, while he was being brought up to think that Dixingren were all criminals and needed to be hunted down, even if he didn't completely buy that line. (I don't know if that makes any sense. I only just thought of it, and it's laaate. But I'll leave it here anyway.)
It’s possible! My feeling is that he’s coming as close as possible within exterior constraints to saying “He loves me.”
Ooh, yes, that too. But in some ways, "He's good to me" is actually more important for a parent to hear, more salient, than "He loves me", I think? Like, lots of people treat people they love really badly, you know? Being treated well is just as rare and precious. And maybe more valued, in a society which has an emphasis on marriage as a duty (which, I don't know how much Haixing has that, but maybe a bit?).
Or maybe it's just that ZYL still hasn't fully grasped that he's lovable at that point, and he doesn't think of framing it that way. Or saying the L-word to his dad, in any context, is unthinkable. *rueful*
In practice, I think the SID team has such bedrock loyalty to Zhao Yunlan that the only one being undermined is Zhao Xinci himself
Haha, very true. Maybe he's playing some kind of enemy-of-my-enemy gambit to get the team to unify even more? Who knows?! (Though it is pretty early days at that point. Guo Changcheng doubts Chu Shuzhi's loyalty to their chief, and not entirely without reason, given how anti-Dixing ZYL reportedly was earlier in his career.)
My reading is that Zhao Xinci, while also just plain losing his temper, is trying to remind Zhao Yunlan to be more politically savvy
Yeah, though he's also advocating shifting the blame to someone else. (Lao-Chu?) /o\ /o\ /o\
Oh dear, I could go on rambling about all this for ever…
It's glorious! *hearts you* But I have to go to sleep now. *waves goodnight*
no subject
Phew! I was afraid I might have been too wall-of-text-y. *g*
Ah, thank you! (I screencapped that scene for my icons; I really should've remembered.) So yeah, for some unspecified length of time, Shen Xi was married to ZXC while Zhang Shi was ~present~ (for some value of present). I wonder if she knew... *squinches eyes at potential dubcon aspects*
Maybe because they never show us finding out? It's like, that could have been a significant plot beat, and the fact that it was omitted implies it wasn't needed because he already knew. (I had been assuming too, until I wrote that fic.)
Oh, but at least ZXC did get a goodbye hug. And the fact that ZYL gave it suggests he knew the other one was with Zhang Shi, right? *has not watched those scenes in a while* So that actually makes me feel better. Thanks!
I mean, the whole "Wick Substitution 101" contingency plan sucks, obviously, but I can see why ZYL might not have been capable of having that conversation with his dad at that time, under such pressure. I just really wanted them to get a reconciliation beat, and they did.
Yes, I think that's exactly why it's so powerful. And to some degree, you know, there probably are a few tiny grains of truth buried in there -- that's why those are the things that come out of ZXC's when he reaches for verbal weapons. Maybe they're waiting to be said, and that's one of the reasons they hit home so hard. But they're not The Truth, and ZYL totally can't hear that.
So do you think there was any good that came out of their connections? Like, I feel like Zhang Shi might have prompted ZXC occasionally to at least try to step outside his rigidity and be supportive or kind to young!ZYL, and Zhang Shi loves ZYL (we know that from the library scene in ep 16, when he's talking to Sang Zan), and ZXC isn't left entirely alone after Shen Xi dies... There has to be some good there, right? For all of them? The real pain comes from the secrets.
And, whoa, okay, now I'm thinking that to an outsider (to ZYL in some lights, perhaps?) Zhang Shi and ZXC are an analogue of the Envoy and Shen Wei -- the hidden Dixing alter ego (that had to be forced to reveal itself) -- though obviously it's not at all the same for Shen Wei (he is both identities, and the hiddeness is very different, too). Only the Zhang Shi revelation is so much worse because it was right there in ZYL's own family, right under his nose, while he was being brought up to think that Dixingren were all criminals and needed to be hunted down, even if he didn't completely buy that line. (I don't know if that makes any sense. I only just thought of it, and it's laaate. But I'll leave it here anyway.)
Ooh, yes, that too. But in some ways, "He's good to me" is actually more important for a parent to hear, more salient, than "He loves me", I think? Like, lots of people treat people they love really badly, you know? Being treated well is just as rare and precious. And maybe more valued, in a society which has an emphasis on marriage as a duty (which, I don't know how much Haixing has that, but maybe a bit?).
Or maybe it's just that ZYL still hasn't fully grasped that he's lovable at that point, and he doesn't think of framing it that way. Or saying the L-word to his dad, in any context, is unthinkable. *rueful*
Haha, very true. Maybe he's playing some kind of enemy-of-my-enemy gambit to get the team to unify even more? Who knows?! (Though it is pretty early days at that point. Guo Changcheng doubts Chu Shuzhi's loyalty to their chief, and not entirely without reason, given how anti-Dixing ZYL reportedly was earlier in his career.)
Yeah, though he's also advocating shifting the blame to someone else. (Lao-Chu?) /o\ /o\ /o\
It's glorious! *hearts you* But I have to go to sleep now. *waves goodnight*