Even when she tells him she only dated him because he was first to take the bait! I do like that he sees through that / doesn't care.
Yeah, I really like that too! He's just all in, emotionally. ♥
I find this bit confusing. When have the DoS and the Xingdu Bureau known more than they should about the SID?
Yeah, I was wondering about that too - it's really not something that's demonstrated on screen, or at least not in any way I can point to. I guess we have to take Zhao Yunlan's word for it. *g*
It's especially hard to say because we don't know what exactly Zhao Yunlan kept out of the paperwork, other than the Hallows - and we only know that for sure because Lin Jing tries to pass them off as a private project during Zhao Xinci's "inspection" ...
(It might be Li Qian's connection with the Hallows, maybe, but does Zhao Yunlan know that the DoS lab knows about that?)
I don't think there's any way he can know!
I don't read it that way. I think Zhao Yunlan immediately understands Lin Jing's reaction re Sha Ya and sees it as separate from his possible spying. They're completely different things.
I don't really mean that Zhao Yunlan believes it - I'm sure he sees through Lin Jing on that front. But with apparently everyone going behind his back, he has to be wondering if he's missing something, if maybe he's not distrustful enough, even if only for a moment. *pets him*
And I don't think Zhao Yunlan holds his silence against him -- if he did, would he have let Lin Jing be present while they were interviewing Sha Ya? Wouldn't he be in disgrace?
I think even if that was the case, if we read Lin Jing as confronting Sha Ya on his own rather than being part of the official plan, then that would go a long way to make up for it in Zhao Yunlan's eyes.
If anything, I think Lin Jing showing genuine feeling here probably makes Zhao Yunlan believe in him more, enabling him to trust Lin Jing enough to flip him later.
Yeah, I'm not sure it's necessarily Lin Jing's reaction to the earring, but I think the whole Sha Ya episode, and Lin Jing getting knocked out by her when he confronts her, helps Zhao Yunlan trust he has his heart and his loyalties in the right place. ♥
I wonder what Zhao Yunlan thinks is going on here. He's immediately accusatory, so he must have decided Shen Wei wasn't just gathering information on behalf of both of them. He doesn't start with "What did you learn?" But he can't think the Envoy would collaborate with the Xingdu Bureau. It's like just seeing Shen Wei and Zhao Xinci together has flipped a fury switch in Zhao Yunlan's head, and he's aware he's not being rational, and he's struggling with it, and that's why he doesn't let it break them again? But he needs Shen Wei to know that he saw and has ~feelings~ and suspicions about it -- which is kind of healthy communication? Much better than bottling it up and pretending everything's fine when it isn't. *pets him*
Yeah, 100% on all this! I think he's initially lashing out because he has to vent his frustrations, because a) Shen Wei's secrets are a really REALLY sore point, and b) things are just piling up right now with traitors and secrets and all, and Shen Wei is someone he can safely lash out at. He knows by this point Shen Wei won't be put off by it. And maybe that knowledge, that memory, helps him rein it in, because he knows on a fundamental level they're in this together, even if he doesn't understand the need for all the secrets. ♥
Heh. That just made me think of him attacking the Regent. :D Has he grown since then, or is he a hypocrite?
I was actually thinking of that scene too! And I believe Lao-Chu has lived by this motto for a long time, actually. Lashing out in the heat of the moment, after provocation, is very different from carrying out a vendetta. He's building his life on something better, not spending his days planning on how to get back at the Regent.
Yesssss! I'm never 100% sure if their reason is that the SID is the modern-day Allied Forces equivalent, or if Zhao Yunlan himself is the reason. After all, Da Qing joined the SID well before Zhao Yunlan did...
I think it's Zhao Yunlan himself - for Da Qing, I don't think he's necessarily talking about his personal reasons for joining the SID, but more like something like fate at work. The reason he found his way to the SID is so he could be there when Zhao Yunlan arrived on the scene. ♥
(I don't think of the SID as the modern-day Allied Forces equivalent, not until Zhao Yunlan meets Shen Wei, anyway - and especially not under Zhao Xinci. Zhang Shi notwithstanding, it's an anti-Dixing department.)
So... I'm guessing the siege squad was an attempt to stop Ye Zun getting visitors?
I'm not sure what the actual goal was, but we know from the Shadow Man lots of people died. We'll need to talk about that again when it comes up next, because I'm none too clear on any of it!
Interesting -- how do you think things might have gone differently? Shen Wei and the SID are already trying to stop Team Merit Brush, so what more do you think Shen Wei could have done to contain Ye Zun that he hadn't already tried?
From what little I remember, it feels like the Regent tried to brute-force the Ye Zun problem, and predictably failed. If he'd talked to Shen Wei and planned with him, they might have come up with a different way. Maybe a containment strategy? A way to keep people away from Ye Zun and monitor what's coming out? Between Shen Wei's powers and the Regent's resources and guards, they might have managed it. Or a way to identify who's been affected by Ye Zun's powers. Idk.
This feels like a turning point to me. Zhao Yunlan seems to readily accept that the DoS officials are, if not antagonists, obstacles in the way of his mission, rather than his superiors with bureaucratic/political authority. [...] It's like he's taken it on himself to be the moral arbiter of the Haixing public sector, without having all the facts. (I love him!!! I just don't know that he's going about this the best way.)
Yeah, agreed, this is not a small thing!
I think it's at least in part because he's decided that the SID shouldn't be the Haixing authorities' tool - that the SID including Shen Wei should be its own thing separate from both the Haixing and Dixing governments. He knows by now the Envoy isn't on best terms with the Regent, that he isn't just acting for the Dixing government either ...
What you said about the SID and the Allied Forces starts applying here, I guess - he wants this to be a force for justice for everyone, and that won't work if there are superiors who can tell the SID not to investigate when it suits them. I don't know if that's a good enough reason, but I think that's a huge part of it.
The other thing is that he's probably pretty sure this is connected to Team Merit Brush, through the attacks on the lab. And he knows better than anyone else in Haixing just how dangerous that is. If his superiors are underestimating the risk, that's potentially fatal, and they can't afford to let it go ...
She's young, and she's been through a lot. She might well agree with Professor Ouyang (and Zhao Xinci) that the serum is vital to protect humanity, and they just have to work hard to minimise the costs. And maybe she thinks it won't be deployed unless there's an emergency? (I think she's also just, you know, enjoying the science.)
Yeah, the most likely interpretation is that she's just not aware of the political complications, or the risks, or Zhao Xinci's pushing ... (And she's definitely enjoying the science!)
I do like that she says she won't hurt them, and also that she pushes back against Ya Qing's suggestion of torturing info out of Lin Jing. Kudos to her for that!
Yeah, she's working with Team Merit Brush, but she has her own limits and ethics, and she's only willing to go so far. Meanwhile, Ya Qing, too, has her limits and her own sense of honour, but she's willing to go a LOT further than Sha Ya is! I love that so many of the villains are complicated like that.
I don't think Zhao Xinci is ruling out peace -- I think he feels he needs the serum (ie, a level playing field) for peace to exist.
Yes, agreed - I meant he seems to be ruling out the possiblity that even without the serum, open conflict won't happen. He seems very sure that it will.
Would Zhao Yunlan and the SID have been able to help Shen Wei defeat Ye Zun if Zhao Yunlan hadn't been juiced up with serum?
Honestly, I don't think it would have made very much of a difference ...
I want to know how Zhao Xinci knows that Shen Wei cares so deeply for Zhao Yunlan. Is that a spy thing, or his own intuition?
Very good question! I'm not sure either. I rather doubt he's taking Zhao Yunlan's word for it! *g*
Or, alternatively, Zhao Xinci is using Shen Wei as a character witness for himself -- like, "see, your boyfriend is on cordial terms with me -- how about you give it a try, too? ;-p" maybe? *g*
Seems unlikely to me. *g*
Yeah, plus this is diplomacy, right? Which requires discretion. The conversation with Zhao Xinci was quite literally above Zhao Yunlan's paygrade.
True. That's definitely not something Shen Wei wants to say to Zhao Yunlan!
(When Zhao Yunlan says, "I wouldn't stand here if I'd heard any," what does he mean? What would he have done if he'd overheard??)
I think he means that if he'd heard, he'd have known for sure how to react - either to confront them or to let it be. But since he didn't, he can't.
I think there's actually a little resentment in Zhao Yunlan's "But I choose to believe in you every time." And then he says, "Even I don't know the reason," and laughs and drops his head, and I think he's thinking something like, "I'm a fool for you because I love you." And Shen Wei drops his gaze to give him privacy, because Shen Wei knows he's trading unfairly on Zhao Yunlan's trust/love, but he doesn't have a choice.
It doesn't quite read that way to me? I feel like the "I chose to believe you every time" is reaffirming his choice, and reminding Shen Wei of it. And there's a bit of resentment in the "even I don't know the reason", but he's putting it aside even as he says it. They both know it's not fair, but that's how it is.
I really wish I cared more about these two. I don't know why I don't.
I never much cared about them, but I actually care more this time round! Lin Jing is so gone on her, OMG.
I love that they've re-found this connection that's so important to both of them, and I love how few words it takes to re-establish it.
Yes! That is excellent!
Could Team Merit Brush be deliberately drawing the SID's attention to the DoS research, to cause dissension in the Haixing bureaucracy and distract the SID? Because that's pretty much what they achieve...
Huh, that's an interesting thought! *ponders*
Mostly the personality switch thing, tbh
Yeah, I don't disagree on that!
Huh, I didn't realise this was plural! In that case, maybe Zhao Yunlan gets him to check on the whole SID team, just to cover his bases, and also so Cong Bo won't know what ZYL suspects. Thoroughness and discretion?
I like that, yes! That's going to be my headcanon now. :D
Aside re the serum itself: in the prologue we learn that when the aliens arrived on Haixing, they genetically modified themselves. I don't really see how this is much different? Unless the DoS is planning to force people to receive the serum, would the (safely developed, freely chosen) option be de facto morally bad?
Of course people choosing to modify themselves isn't bad. The problem with this project, aside from the unethical shortcut-taking and neglecting safety, is that it's specifically a defence project. It's meant to defend Haixing - this is not about giving people the option to mutate, and then go off and have fun with their lives. It's genetic alteration as a weapon. Even if it's only used on volunteers, these people will be under pressure to volunteer for the sake of Haixing's safety, and to use their new powers (whatever they might be) as weapons rather than as simply a part of who they are. They want to turn people into weapons, not just into people with powers.
(And we know that plenty of powers aren't useful for military use - see for example Xiao-Guo's serum powers! How many volunteers/"volunteers" will they have to recruit, to get something useful out of it? What happens to the people whose powers aren't useful, given that all this is top secret? Even if they were allowed to leave, would they have to hide for the rest of their lives?)
I don't think Shen Wei is trying to get concessions for Dixing's sake -- I think he's making sure the Haixing authorities know what the lab is doing (is it official policy, or is it science run amok? that's basically his first question) and have thought through the risks.
Yeah, that makes sense!
I don't know -- I can see it either way. Though I feel like if Lin Jing were acting officially, he should have backup. ;-p
Yeah, that's what tips me over to the interpretation of Lin Jing acting on his own initiative - I don't think they'd have let him face her all on his own ...
I think that's just a fact about Wang Xiangyang, and since Sha Ya and Zhao Yunlan are both bold and direct, they both see this MO as a moral failing.
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Yeah, I really like that too! He's just all in, emotionally. ♥
I find this bit confusing. When have the DoS and the Xingdu Bureau known more than they should about the SID?
Yeah, I was wondering about that too - it's really not something that's demonstrated on screen, or at least not in any way I can point to. I guess we have to take Zhao Yunlan's word for it. *g*
It's especially hard to say because we don't know what exactly Zhao Yunlan kept out of the paperwork, other than the Hallows - and we only know that for sure because Lin Jing tries to pass them off as a private project during Zhao Xinci's "inspection" ...
(It might be Li Qian's connection with the Hallows, maybe, but does Zhao Yunlan know that the DoS lab knows about that?)
I don't think there's any way he can know!
I don't read it that way. I think Zhao Yunlan immediately understands Lin Jing's reaction re Sha Ya and sees it as separate from his possible spying. They're completely different things.
I don't really mean that Zhao Yunlan believes it - I'm sure he sees through Lin Jing on that front. But with apparently everyone going behind his back, he has to be wondering if he's missing something, if maybe he's not distrustful enough, even if only for a moment. *pets him*
And I don't think Zhao Yunlan holds his silence against him -- if he did, would he have let Lin Jing be present while they were interviewing Sha Ya? Wouldn't he be in disgrace?
I think even if that was the case, if we read Lin Jing as confronting Sha Ya on his own rather than being part of the official plan, then that would go a long way to make up for it in Zhao Yunlan's eyes.
If anything, I think Lin Jing showing genuine feeling here probably makes Zhao Yunlan believe in him more, enabling him to trust Lin Jing enough to flip him later.
Yeah, I'm not sure it's necessarily Lin Jing's reaction to the earring, but I think the whole Sha Ya episode, and Lin Jing getting knocked out by her when he confronts her, helps Zhao Yunlan trust he has his heart and his loyalties in the right place. ♥
I wonder what Zhao Yunlan thinks is going on here. He's immediately accusatory, so he must have decided Shen Wei wasn't just gathering information on behalf of both of them. He doesn't start with "What did you learn?" But he can't think the Envoy would collaborate with the Xingdu Bureau. It's like just seeing Shen Wei and Zhao Xinci together has flipped a fury switch in Zhao Yunlan's head, and he's aware he's not being rational, and he's struggling with it, and that's why he doesn't let it break them again? But he needs Shen Wei to know that he saw and has ~feelings~ and suspicions about it -- which is kind of healthy communication? Much better than bottling it up and pretending everything's fine when it isn't. *pets him*
Yeah, 100% on all this! I think he's initially lashing out because he has to vent his frustrations, because a) Shen Wei's secrets are a really REALLY sore point, and b) things are just piling up right now with traitors and secrets and all, and Shen Wei is someone he can safely lash out at. He knows by this point Shen Wei won't be put off by it. And maybe that knowledge, that memory, helps him rein it in, because he knows on a fundamental level they're in this together, even if he doesn't understand the need for all the secrets. ♥
Heh. That just made me think of him attacking the Regent. :D Has he grown since then, or is he a hypocrite?
I was actually thinking of that scene too! And I believe Lao-Chu has lived by this motto for a long time, actually. Lashing out in the heat of the moment, after provocation, is very different from carrying out a vendetta. He's building his life on something better, not spending his days planning on how to get back at the Regent.
Yesssss! I'm never 100% sure if their reason is that the SID is the modern-day Allied Forces equivalent, or if Zhao Yunlan himself is the reason. After all, Da Qing joined the SID well before Zhao Yunlan did...
I think it's Zhao Yunlan himself - for Da Qing, I don't think he's necessarily talking about his personal reasons for joining the SID, but more like something like fate at work. The reason he found his way to the SID is so he could be there when Zhao Yunlan arrived on the scene. ♥
(I don't think of the SID as the modern-day Allied Forces equivalent, not until Zhao Yunlan meets Shen Wei, anyway - and especially not under Zhao Xinci. Zhang Shi notwithstanding, it's an anti-Dixing department.)
So... I'm guessing the siege squad was an attempt to stop Ye Zun getting visitors?
I'm not sure what the actual goal was, but we know from the Shadow Man lots of people died. We'll need to talk about that again when it comes up next, because I'm none too clear on any of it!
Interesting -- how do you think things might have gone differently? Shen Wei and the SID are already trying to stop Team Merit Brush, so what more do you think Shen Wei could have done to contain Ye Zun that he hadn't already tried?
From what little I remember, it feels like the Regent tried to brute-force the Ye Zun problem, and predictably failed. If he'd talked to Shen Wei and planned with him, they might have come up with a different way. Maybe a containment strategy? A way to keep people away from Ye Zun and monitor what's coming out? Between Shen Wei's powers and the Regent's resources and guards, they might have managed it. Or a way to identify who's been affected by Ye Zun's powers. Idk.
This feels like a turning point to me. Zhao Yunlan seems to readily accept that the DoS officials are, if not antagonists, obstacles in the way of his mission, rather than his superiors with bureaucratic/political authority. [...] It's like he's taken it on himself to be the moral arbiter of the Haixing public sector, without having all the facts. (I love him!!! I just don't know that he's going about this the best way.)
Yeah, agreed, this is not a small thing!
I think it's at least in part because he's decided that the SID shouldn't be the Haixing authorities' tool - that the SID including Shen Wei should be its own thing separate from both the Haixing and Dixing governments. He knows by now the Envoy isn't on best terms with the Regent, that he isn't just acting for the Dixing government either ...
What you said about the SID and the Allied Forces starts applying here, I guess - he wants this to be a force for justice for everyone, and that won't work if there are superiors who can tell the SID not to investigate when it suits them. I don't know if that's a good enough reason, but I think that's a huge part of it.
The other thing is that he's probably pretty sure this is connected to Team Merit Brush, through the attacks on the lab. And he knows better than anyone else in Haixing just how dangerous that is. If his superiors are underestimating the risk, that's potentially fatal, and they can't afford to let it go ...
She's young, and she's been through a lot. She might well agree with Professor Ouyang (and Zhao Xinci) that the serum is vital to protect humanity, and they just have to work hard to minimise the costs. And maybe she thinks it won't be deployed unless there's an emergency? (I think she's also just, you know, enjoying the science.)
Yeah, the most likely interpretation is that she's just not aware of the political complications, or the risks, or Zhao Xinci's pushing ... (And she's definitely enjoying the science!)
I do like that she says she won't hurt them, and also that she pushes back against Ya Qing's suggestion of torturing info out of Lin Jing. Kudos to her for that!
Yeah, she's working with Team Merit Brush, but she has her own limits and ethics, and she's only willing to go so far. Meanwhile, Ya Qing, too, has her limits and her own sense of honour, but she's willing to go a LOT further than Sha Ya is! I love that so many of the villains are complicated like that.
I don't think Zhao Xinci is ruling out peace -- I think he feels he needs the serum (ie, a level playing field) for peace to exist.
Yes, agreed - I meant he seems to be ruling out the possiblity that even without the serum, open conflict won't happen. He seems very sure that it will.
Would Zhao Yunlan and the SID have been able to help Shen Wei defeat Ye Zun if Zhao Yunlan hadn't been juiced up with serum?
Honestly, I don't think it would have made very much of a difference ...
I want to know how Zhao Xinci knows that Shen Wei cares so deeply for Zhao Yunlan. Is that a spy thing, or his own intuition?
Very good question! I'm not sure either. I rather doubt he's taking Zhao Yunlan's word for it! *g*
Or, alternatively, Zhao Xinci is using Shen Wei as a character witness for himself -- like, "see, your boyfriend is on cordial terms with me -- how about you give it a try, too? ;-p" maybe? *g*
Seems unlikely to me. *g*
Yeah, plus this is diplomacy, right? Which requires discretion. The conversation with Zhao Xinci was quite literally above Zhao Yunlan's paygrade.
True. That's definitely not something Shen Wei wants to say to Zhao Yunlan!
(When Zhao Yunlan says, "I wouldn't stand here if I'd heard any," what does he mean? What would he have done if he'd overheard??)
I think he means that if he'd heard, he'd have known for sure how to react - either to confront them or to let it be. But since he didn't, he can't.
I think there's actually a little resentment in Zhao Yunlan's "But I choose to believe in you every time." And then he says, "Even I don't know the reason," and laughs and drops his head, and I think he's thinking something like, "I'm a fool for you because I love you." And Shen Wei drops his gaze to give him privacy, because Shen Wei knows he's trading unfairly on Zhao Yunlan's trust/love, but he doesn't have a choice.
It doesn't quite read that way to me? I feel like the "I chose to believe you every time" is reaffirming his choice, and reminding Shen Wei of it. And there's a bit of resentment in the "even I don't know the reason", but he's putting it aside even as he says it. They both know it's not fair, but that's how it is.
I really wish I cared more about these two. I don't know why I don't.
I never much cared about them, but I actually care more this time round! Lin Jing is so gone on her, OMG.
I love that they've re-found this connection that's so important to both of them, and I love how few words it takes to re-establish it.
Yes! That is excellent!
Could Team Merit Brush be deliberately drawing the SID's attention to the DoS research, to cause dissension in the Haixing bureaucracy and distract the SID? Because that's pretty much what they achieve...
Huh, that's an interesting thought! *ponders*
Mostly the personality switch thing, tbh
Yeah, I don't disagree on that!
Huh, I didn't realise this was plural! In that case, maybe Zhao Yunlan gets him to check on the whole SID team, just to cover his bases, and also so Cong Bo won't know what ZYL suspects. Thoroughness and discretion?
I like that, yes! That's going to be my headcanon now. :D
Aside re the serum itself: in the prologue we learn that when the aliens arrived on Haixing, they genetically modified themselves. I don't really see how this is much different? Unless the DoS is planning to force people to receive the serum, would the (safely developed, freely chosen) option be de facto morally bad?
Of course people choosing to modify themselves isn't bad. The problem with this project, aside from the unethical shortcut-taking and neglecting safety, is that it's specifically a defence project. It's meant to defend Haixing - this is not about giving people the option to mutate, and then go off and have fun with their lives. It's genetic alteration as a weapon. Even if it's only used on volunteers, these people will be under pressure to volunteer for the sake of Haixing's safety, and to use their new powers (whatever they might be) as weapons rather than as simply a part of who they are. They want to turn people into weapons, not just into people with powers.
(And we know that plenty of powers aren't useful for military use - see for example Xiao-Guo's serum powers! How many volunteers/"volunteers" will they have to recruit, to get something useful out of it? What happens to the people whose powers aren't useful, given that all this is top secret? Even if they were allowed to leave, would they have to hide for the rest of their lives?)
I don't think Shen Wei is trying to get concessions for Dixing's sake -- I think he's making sure the Haixing authorities know what the lab is doing (is it official policy, or is it science run amok? that's basically his first question) and have thought through the risks.
Yeah, that makes sense!
I don't know -- I can see it either way. Though I feel like if Lin Jing were acting officially, he should have backup. ;-p
Yeah, that's what tips me over to the interpretation of Lin Jing acting on his own initiative - I don't think they'd have let him face her all on his own ...
I think that's just a fact about Wang Xiangyang, and since Sha Ya and Zhao Yunlan are both bold and direct, they both see this MO as a moral failing.
That works for me!