Question re: the twins and naming conventions

[firestar]

How normal is it for one twin to have a one character given name and the other a two character one?

This question brought to you by binge reading too many no powers!AU fics where Ye Zun isn't the big bad and the two are just regular twins. (In as much as they can be, given... well, them being themselves) There doesn't seem to be a lot of consensus on how to name Ye Zun in those, and it's something that's also just... mainly worked around and not mentioned at all.

(Help. I'm the whitest white girl and have no context for this whatsoever and enquiring minds want to know. >.>)

Comments

[naye]

I am so curious to know what answers you get!

I can parse single characters, and I was wondering what Chinese fic does, so I had a quick look at the Ye Zun character tag on AO3. Writers seem to sometimes go with "Shen Ye" (沈夜)? But I didn't see any "Shen Yezun" (or "Shen Zun") in my admittedly small sample.

[qikiqtarjuaq]

Generally, siblings tend to share the same last name, so twins named Shen Wei and Ye Zun are unusual. However, there are also instances where people will give siblings the last names from each of their parents. For example, my mom took my grandmother's last name, whereas my uncle took my grandfather's last name - so even though they are brother & sister, they don't have the same last name. In a no power AU where you want to keep their names, that might be the handwavy approach to take.

I've always kind of wondered in the drama if Ye Zun was his original name or one given to him by the rebels?

[china_shop]

I read a fic where the Rebels called him Ye Zun as a nickname, and that seems to have become my headcanon, but it means I have no headcanon for what his original name might have been...

[qikiqtarjuaq]

I love the hilarious c-fic authors who call him Shen Mian, but that's the crack answer.

[china_shop]

*googles*

Mian = face?

[qikiqtarjuaq]

Yep. 沈面. Ye Zun's nickname in Chinese fandom is 面面 (Mianmian), taken from 鬼面 (Ghost Face) in the novel. I've spent so much time on weibo I think of him more as mianmian than Ye Zun these days. XD

[china_shop]

Ha! That's great. :-)

[strangefen]

My personal head canon is that his that Ye Zun's name is Zun, Ye is a title. Hei Pao acknowdedges that his family name is Shen but people call him Wei because he comes from the west, Zhao Yun Lan gave him a name that means something. I think the reason the twins left Dixing is because their parents got offed in palace games. Both of the twins seemed really well versed in old fashioned manners and courtesy. So elder brother probably also had a title that for some reason he abandoned along with his name.

[naye]

I mean, that makes add much sense as anything! But technically the Zun 尊 part of his name is the title? (A definition I've gotten is "revered".) "Ye" 夜 on the other hand means "night".

[strangefen]

*shrug* I am totally willing to admit to translation fail on my part

[firestar]

I've seen Shen Zun in English at least, but not Shen Ye. Interesting difference on the language divide!

[firestar]

I love that idea of why they left Dixing. Poor bbs.

[firestar]

Ooooh, that's interesting. I'd assumed names would share a character or something but it's good to know what other ways are as well. Thank you!

I've seen people reference 'Ye Zun' as being a title, rather than his name, so his actual name could be anything.

[firestar]

Hence all the 'revere the night' thing he has going on the brainwashing front, I assume.

[naye]

Exactly! It's. Quite Extra.

Oh Ye Zun.

[firestar]

Extra might as well be his name, the way he goes about everything. XD

[strangefen]

Oh cool! I hadn't made that connection.

[rheasilvia]

I think the reason the twins left Dixing is because their parents got offed in palace games.

This is now also my headcanon. I think it's a great explanation for many small things about the twins' (and especially Shen Wei's) behavior and attitudes that they come from (and were raised as) old nobility. Thank you for sharing this. :-)

[trobadora]

Hei Pao acknowdedges that his family name is Shen but people call him Wei because he comes from the west

Yeah, I remember thinking that didn't sound as if he was referring to his actual childhood name? Not sure about that.

I think the reason the twins left Dixing is because their parents got offed in palace games. Both of the twins seemed really well versed in old fashioned manners and courtesy.

You're right, that makes so much sense! Headcanon adopted. :D

[extrapenguin]

Yup! "Ye Zun" is more ... "Night Lord", kinda sorta, and not what I'd class as an actual name. It's a title/nickname, given to him either by the rebels or some other source. Given that in the flashback, the twins only ever address each other as gege/didi, I'd be willing to believe that Ye Zun has forgotten his original name. As has Shen Wei, maybe.

Shen Wei's surname must be original, but he says people call him Wéi 嵬 because he comes from the mountain. Based on that, Ye Zun must also come from the mountain, and thus I shall unify him with his brother and call him 嶪 (conveniently also pronounced yè) should I ever need to rename him.

[firestar]

Well, it has been 10,000 years. And I doubt the rebels cared what his name was and called him whatever they felt like which, you know, probably not a name he'd want to keep.

Oooh, interesting. I wonder if that's why Chinese language fic tends to go with Shen Ye, as per a comment up top. Hmmm.

[extrapenguin]

Actually, we hear the rebel boss call him Ye Zun, we hear Shen Wei call him Ye Zun, and we hear lots of other people call him Ye Zun! Though I don't recall if he ever stood up and declared that he was Ye Zun. (That'd actually be an interesting aspect to consider re: Ye Zun's identity and hypothetical lingering brainwashing from the original rebel leader. Hmm. So much to bite into!)

(Also, that 嶪 is one half of 岌嶪, which means "high and steep / towering / perilous", similar to Shen Wei's Wei!)

Well, "Shen Zun" makes no sense as a name – it'd be "Lord Shen" or "The Honored Shen" or something to that effect. "Shen Ye" with Ye Zun's ye would actually be a passable name. Somewhat relatedly, my biggest bugbear is when fic refers to Ye Zun as "Zun" only. Please. That's not his name! (And I also hate it when people refer to Shen Wei as just Wei or just Shen, and when people refer to Zhao Yunlan as just Zhao. Argh.)

[firestar]

Oh, there's so much to delve into with Ye Zun. The benfits (?) of not really getting a lot of backstory. XD

(Symmetry!)

There's a writer on AO3 that uses Wei and Lan and every time I see it I twitch, because even I know that's not right and I can't deal. Throw an honorific in front of it at least, if you don't want to use full names for whatever reason. *headdesks*

[extrapenguin]

Ye Zun is a very nice character! Not much backstory, but it's all very fraught, and we know he has a dysfunctional relationship with his brother!

There's a writer on AO3 that uses Wei and Lan and every time I see it I twitch, because even I know that's not right and I can't deal. Throw an honorific in front of it at least, if you don't want to use full names for whatever reason. *headdesks*
Yeah it's ... Chinese reference is minimum two syllables. Some of those get translated (eg 沈教授 -> Professor Shen), some don't (沈巍 -> Shen Wei; 小巍 -> xiao-Wei), but ... none of this "Lan" business. I actually keep at first reading it as fic for another fandom entirely, where there were characters whose surnames were Wei and Lan.

[firestar]

Not much backstory is a blessing as well as a frustration. You can make up anything, as long as it works for the character. XD

*nods* And usually full names, right? Unless you're close or using an honorific like lao, xiao, ge etc?

[extrapenguin]

And usually full names, right? Unless you're close or using an honorific like lao, xiao, ge etc?
Yup! You can also refer to this Twitter thread. Lao, xiao, and -ge aren't honorifics as such (xiao is a diminutive), but, uh, sorta yeah.

[firestar]

*favourites thread* That's going to be super useful, thank you. <3

Heh, I've had a long day, honorifcs was the only word I could come up with. >.>

[firestar]

omg. Reading through that and just. Facepalming over book Yunlan. Good brother, indeed, oh my god.

[extrapenguin]

No problem – we've all had that kind of day every now and then. Hopefully the thread will be useful!

[firestar]

It is so far! When I'm not dying over ZYL being so fucking Extra. XD

[foxghost]

In siblings - not only twins - the convention is to name the older one first, and then have the younger one follow the first character of a first name. Not as commonly you'd get the second character in common. If you get twins, pick two lines of poetry and two words that land in the same rhythm. either way, sibling names are supposed to match, in twins more so.

But 嵬 / Wei wasn't Shen Wei's real name either. It was a nickname. Neither was 夜尊。 There's a line in guardian that's a drama invention: 欲得光明，先尊黑夜 / If you desire light, first revere the night. It's kind of bad. (cfandom kind of makes fun of this: if after 10,000 years in a pillar that's the best thing he can come up with ... ugh) Anyway, I'm not sure if he was named by bandits, or named himself, but I'd go with just the Zun in his name. Shen Zun. Nickname Yezun bc he's a night owl. XD 沈夜 strikes me as wrong, but i can't tell you why, except that 夜 just isn't meaningful enough to use as a name, the way 尊 could be. But 尊 is actually a title. 夜尊 literally reads "Lord of Night." It's a very demon lord name if Guardian was a daoist immortal fantasy.

if i was the one who went and named one twin 嵬 (Wei) I'd name the other one 崗 (Gang) because 崔嵬高崗 makes a pair.

[naye]

Thank you, that's fascinating!

The fact that the show decided to go with "Shen Wei" and "Ye Zun" and then never really go into anything but 嵬 > 巍 with no explanation of anything else has been really frustrating me. So I'm very grateful for your take on that, and on what would make a good option if you wanted to harmonise the naming scheme for any reasons. (And then 小樽 is just such a great teasing nickname!)

Out of curiosity, what meaning does 崔嵬高崗 have? Is it a saying? (I've looked up the dictionary definition, but that's not enough context for me to pick up on the "pair"!)

[firestar]

Oooh, that's super interesting, thank you. And Yezun as a nickname for a night owl cracks me up. XD

[china_shop]

Thank you so much for this!

(So, if for some ~inexplicable~ reason, say, you wanted to have someone call Ye Zun "xiao [name]", if I'm reading you correctly, you'd go for "xiao Zun" -- is that right? Or would that be too weird?)

[foxghost]

It's from one of the earliest chinese poems, collected in the first poetry collection, the Book of Songs.

采采卷耳、不盈頃筐。
I labour collecting field mouse-ear, but my basket isn't filled.
嗟我懷人、寘彼周行。
Oh I miss my beloved, leaving the basket behind.
陟彼崔嵬、我馬虺隤。
Climbing the stony mound, my horse grows tired and listless.
我姑酌彼金罍、維以不永懷。
I fill a gold cup with wine, so I would not always miss you.
陟彼高岡、我馬玄黃。
Ascending to the height of a mountain ridge, my horse's legs are sore and it grows ill.
我姑酌彼兕觥、維以不永傷。
I fill a big cup with wine, so I would not always be sorrowful.
陟彼砠矣、我馬瘏矣、我僕痡矣、雲何籲矣。
With great difficulty I scale a hill made of stone, my horse falls exhausted, my servant weary beyond imagining, yet helplessly I am still sighing with grief.

I highlighted the two words above, and they fall on the same rhythm, 崔嵬 meaning "stony mound" and 高岡 being a "tall ridge."

[foxghost]

It won't be weird at all. It would be a more familiar way to call someone though. If, say, you have his name as Shen Zun, then someone less familiar knowing that he's the younger one would call him xiao-Shen, whereas someone who is more familiar may call him xiao-Zun.

[china_shop]

Awesome, thanks! <3

[naye]

Ahhh, beautiful! Thank you so much. <3

[glymr]

Thank you very much for this, it's really helpful!

Based on your last comment there, if you were writing a modern day AU, would naming the twins "Shen Wei" and "Shen Gang" be appropriate, then? I'm working one (well, a couple) and I've been looking for an appropriate name for Ye Zun that would make sense in a modern context...

[foxghost]

It can totally work --- it's an old fashioned name though, so I'm guessing he'd probably hate it. :3

[glymr]

I've come to ask for help again, if you have time and are willing.

I made use of the name "Shen Gang" in a modern AU. In the story, the twins are separated, and Shen Wei (嵬) ultimately changes his name to Shen Wei (巍) just as he does in the show, based on Zhao Yunlan's suggestion.

The thing I'm stuck on is that Shen Gang, who is using "Ye Zun" as a stage name, also wants to change his name so that he and Shen Wei 'match' once more. But I have absolutely no idea what modern name would match with "Shen Wei (巍)". This has been holding up the story for months. Do you have any thoughts? Please don't feel obligated if this would be time consuming or a chore; I can beg for help on Twitter or similar. But your suggestion for Ye Zun's original name was so helpful that I hoped you might have another one that would go with 巍. I would be eternally grateful! orz